While we want to minimise abuse, we feel that it should not be quite so draconian.
We feel that some flexibility in dropping the pirate status of a ship should be included. By having a minimum fee of $5000 plus 1% of the value of a ship, we end up with values ranging from $5,130 for a yacht to $10,000 for a 100HH warship.
Personally once a pirate always a pirate unless of course the ship is returned to the original AFF then the flag can be taken down by SA
I think the tag should possible to remove. 1 week the ship is taken and then later recaptured. Why shouldn't the former owners or new owners be able to clear the record?
As for the means...the one proposed does seem cheap. I mean 5k for a 10 huller and 10k for a ship 10 times bigger?
10k per warship is very cheap for big affs, while for smaller affs losing 1 such ship, is a considerable loss. So paying 10k to have it back is cheap
Can you clear the PIR flag then? Or are you left with a PIR ship?
I would like to be able to reclaim a ship lost to PIR and have it back to my affiliation - I guess that is an SA.
I guess if you allow the conversion on demand - then it will just make people have to work harder to see who is running pirates - but ultimately, if they get caught it is easier to make some form of response to it.
My suggestion would be a public control feature:
De-pirating a ship should be a political action.
Whenever a ship is de-pirated, the position number and name of the position as well as the date, the political issuing the order and of course the affiliation of the political should be reported to the public, either through SSS or a political message to all affiliations in the game.
That should prevent abuse better than any fee or GM ruling.
It also generates revenue as it requires a political position.
I suggested as much, some time before, but was told that it would lead to simpathy, or not, votes (ex:IMP block voting against DTR depiratization). And at any rate what does an aff, that never encoutered the PIR ship, or even the aff to which the ship belongued to before, to vote aye or nay?
If they capture ships then they should be allowed to transfer them to non-pirate status.
This should be part of the game...
The cost for getting caught doing this should be high 'in game'.
The cost for getting away with it should be high 'in game'.
There is no reason that this transfer should be made public. All that does is make it easier for anyone to spot who was doing the piracy.
If piracy is going to be more common than it is now...
1. Ships should be 'sold' by the pirates to whoever wants them. Ie Reflagged.
2. Merchants should defend their cargo ships better.
3. Affiliations should provide some form of protection within their borders... ie Merchants pay for risk free shipping... System claimants provide the risk free shipping routes and charge merchants/starbases for this privilage.
Stopping piracy 'in game' needs to be done by providing anti-piracy forces 'in game' - not some 'out of game' ruling.
The anti-piracy task force is allready doing a good job - it just needs more ships...
Maybe the 'system claimants' resposibilities need reviewing with the infrastructure changes...
GTDoug.
For the record I am RIP - you may see that as bias... I don't.
| QUOTE (Frabby @ Nov 18 2004, 03:10 PM) |
| De-pirating a ship should be a political action. Whenever a ship is de-pirated, the position number and name of the position as well as the date, the political issuing the order and of course the affiliation of the political should be reported to the public, either through SSS or a political message to all affiliations in the game. |
I prefer this method to the choices of paying or never possible.
| QUOTE (Avatar on Nov 18 2004 @ 03:21 PM) |
| but was told that it would lead to simpathy, or not, votes (ex:IMP block voting against DTR depiratization) |
not quite the same, he never metioned voting. actually i think there is no need to vote as long as both the position number and political who is doing the convert is made public, then it is up to the person to argue in character to stop people just adding the ship to their posted lists
If people feel theres a good reason, ie a recaptured vessel, then fair enough, and it would also mean if your running regular pirate ships and you tried it then everyone would know you are so abuse is kept to a minimal.
possibly unpirating a ship should default to being posted by everyone (other than the owners affilation) and then they can again argue their case for it to be unposted.
basicly this is the same as asking Mica via a special action, but takes all the load of checking if it's valid off him and adds to the whole roleplay factor of it.
Edit: notes that i just disagreed with doug who replied while i was typing..
but i'm also from RIP As an alternative, perhaps it should be feasible to sell ships to seedy EEM officials - at a price well under the real value?
The current methode makes getting ships back an almost impossible task, as you can't reflagged them. If you allow to reflag them you will make piracy an ever bigger possibility like it is now. Basically pirated trade ships are being scrapped for the parts... I think.
Problem with easily reflagging ships is that affl will use Pirates as weapons of war instead of declaring war. It might be done already, but not on a big level, like it will be done when the reflagging is easily done.
Also, I dont'think that the system security things is good enough. I won't believe that security will be so lax within core systems that it allows enemy ships to enter at will grab an ship and leave without being seen.. Don't we have systemwide sensors and unmanned fighter patrols??
Would it also be possible to buy a 'wartime' license? (Letters of Marque)
Part of me thinks it should be possible to reflag a PIR, part of me can see the problems in allowing it.
I can't get off the fence on this one yet (unusual for me you might think
)Keep talking (need more input
)... I think there should be a way to get rid of the flag, it should not be easy, and I have no idea what would be the best way.
Interested in the idea of a Political order, made public knowledge though - EEM handle the paperwork side, and anyone in the galaxy has a right to look-up a ships ID (happens everytime you scan a ship!). Therefore everyone gets to hear about it. There's some good IC pressure there, but it's not going to make a difference to the bigger/powerful affs... Prehaps the cost ASWELL?
| QUOTE (Duckworth-Lewis @ Nov 18 2004, 03:55 PM) |
| What happens if a captured ship is posted? |
I was pretty much with the reflag camp until this little beaut (and it's knock-on effects/problems)...
| QUOTE (Duckworth-Lewis @ Nov 18 2004, 02:55 PM) |
| What happens if a captured ship is posted? |
Yes, encountered that one. The ship simply shows that it has changed affiliation.
If you treat pirate as a position that is simply not registered with the EEM then it begins to make sense. So registering it means that everybodies posted list is updated. It does not remove them from the posted list, that is obviously a job for role-play and in-game threats.
PIRATE Black Jack (13851) has fallen to the attackers.
then
Targeting DTR Black Jack (13851):
Locked Target
Attacking DTR Black Jack (13851)
| QUOTE (Clay @ Nov 19 2004, 01:23 AM) |
| Interested in the idea of a Political order, made public knowledge though - EEM handle the paperwork side, and anyone in the galaxy has a right to look-up a ships ID (happens everytime you scan a ship!). Therefore everyone gets to hear about it. There's some good IC pressure there, but it's not going to make a difference to the bigger/powerful affs... Prehaps the cost ASWELL? |
Cost as well makes sense, especially after reading mica's comment on 'regestiring with the eem' as it explains why it costs you.
The fact you'd still be posted is obvoiusly ingame, and the public annocement means it's up to that owner to explain *why* they have a pirate ship and why it wouldn't be posted. but now i'm just restating ealier comments
IC it makes sense that if you recapture a stolen ship you can reset it to your aff flag. Not being able to do so is a bit dumb. However, there are the huge OOC abuse issues which have already been mentioned here.I'll throw another suggestion into the mix (which in a mix of the various options being proposed)
Since the whole ship ID number thing is explained IC as EEM registry why not use that pretense for de-pirating. To depirate a ship you need to land at a colony and contact the EEM offices. They will then run a series of checks and start the appropriate paper work to re-register the vessel. This would have administration costs and like all bureaucracy would take time (say a couple of months). Add a "depirating" report as a political option where the EEM list all vessels they are currently running checks on. While a vessel is being checked by the EEM it would be impounded (TU set to zero and not gain any TU). Once released it is reflagged and reset to 300TU.
This method would allow a small number of legit (or captured) PIR vessels to be reflagged but whole fleets would be unlikely if they were out of commission for several weeks.
The purpose of being a pirate is to do the same but widen the field to include neutrals and possibly allies. The point being that any sort of de-flagging will be noticed if the same affiliation keeps cropping up as the owners of ex-pirates, especially if affiliations post any ship that has been pirated. Players are not stupid, they will smell a rat (not the RAT
) pretty sharpish and mete out punishment in-game.There is only one extra thing that I would like, that would be for the de-flagging to occur and the stellars removed at the time of transfer to another player. This will allow pirates to 'legitimately' sell pirate vessels.
Again, players will still be bloody suspicious if the same affiliation seems to have first dibs on pirate ships. We may need a purchase ship order as this would enable affiliations to buy back their ships from pirates to prevent double-crossing (as much fun as this would be).
The alternative would be a general public announcement (anyone posting this vessel xxx please contact me), and can't guarentee that everyone responds.
Anyway, who is going to pay for it to be advertised that a member of their affiliation was running a Pirate ship.
Geoff
| QUOTE (HPSimms @ Nov 19 2004, 11:36 AM) |
| I think that ships designated as pirate should remain that way unless captured. When captured they should be re-flagged to the boarding affiliation (I think this happens now but am not sure). |
Allowing this would be open abuse which is exactly why it is not (at least should not change affiliations).
HP Simms in his pirate vessel captures some HVE ships, flies them somewhere out of way and waits for his IMP buddies to arrive, pick up the pirate crew and then board the now empty ships. Ain't Simms great, captured this ship all on his own, honest guv.
No, no no, no noooo!The reason for the fee is to counter the fact that warships need naval officers and the system is not open for over abuse though allows some grey areas, i.e. players know that it has cost them real stellars.
Saying that,the political position that created the pirate position should not be allowed to reflag it back again.
If a PIR position is captured by a non-PIR position it shouldn't be reflagged as the capturing aff until a re-registering fee is paid(to stop abuse as has been stated).
Now what if a PIR position wants to sell on any ships they've captured??
If they find a willing buyer is there someway KJC can change the actual position number??
If so in this case the position can be reflagged as the buying aff.
Sort of buying a stolen car with forged registration paperwork!!!
To add to this..could there be a way for politicals to find out from the EEM(for a fee of course)if an AFF flagged ship is actually registered.That way they can tell if a suspious looking ship has been through a chop shop and sold on!
. This way, each time its done, a special explanation would be forthcoming, plus not only would it cost stellars, but real money too. I had a conversation with Dan Reed yesterday, on line, and after hearing what he had to say about things, I believe having the option of changeing a pirateship back to a normal one would be a good one.. One time only pership. clif
Then everyone upon sighting it would know the ship was once either an active pirate ship, or pirated.
The not being to reflag is too strict. I mean if someone took one of my ships and painted it yellow, like the IMPs like to:), I would never recognize it.
| QUOTE (Avatar @ Nov 23 2004, 11:01 PM) |
| The not being to reflag is too strict. I mean if someone took one of my ships and painted it yellow, like the IMPs like to:), I would never recognize it. |
Obviously the paint job is not the only way to tell ships apart
Assuming that ship identification (how EEM can tell them apart) is by a whole range of things - ISR signiture, shape, configuration, heat signiture etc (EVERY ship is going to be slightly different, even if off a production line), does this mean that to change from a PIR means totally obliterating of these identifyers (Filing down the numbers, re-setting the Thrust Engines etc)?
If that logic holds true (or something close to it), it may be that you can only un-PIR a ship by doing a special re-fit. The problem is, getting the PIR'd ship to the Maint Complexes without being seen. Also, Agents may be able to discover if a starbase is being used as a "chop-shop" by questioning employees.
Probably an SA to initiate it?
Having to pay EEM (under the counter) to register it as "legit"?
[still not voted - just throwing ideas]