In this example, if the stellar cartography didnt find anything, is that conclusive proof that nothing will link to that system? ie. once youve done that stellar cart and found nothing, then there is no point in doing Stellar Cart - Dufus 2.

Mark

My initial reaction was the same too - I didnt like it. Personally, I like the "hit and hope" risk factor and Id far rather do a lot of "small" 1000mu projects, each with a chance of finding something than a giant 10,000mu project and wait 2 years to get a result.

The new method also seems to tell you the result of the research (it tells you the system you will find), in advance of doing it. I know this is like the normal research (research reaction drive technique and you can do xxx), but again I dont like that lack of risk/surprise at what you find (or dont!).

Part of me also suspects there will be far more multi-thousand mu stellar carts, than sub-thousand ones....so that the change is to slow down research, but give a guaranteed result. I hope that isnt the underlying assumption with the new system?

Mark

You only know prior to the start of Dufus I that it will not achieve anything. You cannot get an answer to what Dufus II will give until you have an installed copy of Dufus I. The question is, is it worth the hassle?

Reasonably disgruntled feedback from players. There are some out there that have surpassed level III in multiple systems. While this has cost a lot of real money, I cannot take this into consideration when I repeatedly return negative results. If a player cannot see a brick wall, they can't help repeatedly banging into it .

You will know prior to starting the cartography if it will be successful. This makes it closer to other research projects. When you complete research into a blueprint, you do not have to test to see if it works once you finish it.

hmm - run around and do a single SA in every system you know about in order to see if your missing anything obvious?

sounds good.

Some of the results might be a 'maybe', which means you'd have to do the research and then re-issue the SA, before learning about the new system / previously unknown link second time around?

Mica,

Now that Ive had some of the new SC costs back, can you please confirm that the new costs are identical to what it would have cost under the old system? For example, if a Stellar Cart is now 4000mus, then under the old system you would need Stellar Cart level 4 to have achieved the same results?

Mark

Of course its a problem. Currently you have no idea, no matter how many techs you do, if you are going to be successful. If you know in advance you will be succesful or not then what are you going to do? Do the research anyway or stop right there and start on a system you know will have something off of it. Whilst that sounds ok for your own systems then what about if an enemy affiliation uses this to pinpoint your hidden/restricted systems, all they have to do is initiate a project with 1 complex in each system and then they will know exactly where they need to spend their time and money to get to you in the least amount of time.

I await Mica's comments on whether overall SC costs have gone up as a result of this change before deciding if this is a good change or not. if an SC is now 4000mus, did that mean under the old method it would have taken SC level 4 to find the same system?

Mark

In certain circumstances, such as when the information is sensitive, the stellar cartography project simply states:

The project will map the route to an uncharted star - 3 Jump Distance - 4000mu's.

I can even see when players know this information so while the above information may be given to one player, another may get this.

The project will map the route to the Constantine System - 3 Jump Distance - 4000mu's.
This may be the case when they already have access to the Restricted system Constantine, as they have completed Stellar Cartography within a nearer system.

I can however understand players being a little narked if any position can request the information regarding stellar cartography in any system without some initial investment.

Would players prefer it if special actions requesting the information required the exhaustive use of a generic mapping programme blueprint or some other item such as a scanning array?

Nope, if it cost you 3 projects, to get to the first star, then it will cost those following 1 project of 3000mu's to get there. If you got there in 1 project then they will need 1 project of 1000mu's.
In the past, where useful info can be found about links, this has been translated into bonus mass added to the research project, not a change in the size of the project. I see no reason to change this practise.

The only difference is that in the past you would have had multiple rants, each louder than the last about spending money and not getting anywhere (despite the results saying that you are less likely to find something, still convinced that a GM would not allow you to spend seven consecutive projects achieving fook-all), now you can have a bit rant right at the beginning and sack of stellar cart for the system and look somewhere else.

Perhaps stellar cart data could only be achieved once a certain number of research complexes was built in that system?

Mark

Not a bad idea. Anyone else care to comment.

I have never ranted about failed SCs. Ive asked you about one, because I had SA data that I thought said something different, but my misunderstanding was cleared up. if you thought I was ranting about it, then I apologise (though I never thought a single email query was a rant).

I would suggest that this is not the only difference. The big difference is that now you know, with absolute certainty, that if you do a 4000mu project you will find a new system (whether you know its name or not). In the past most people would have given up by then, now they may well persevere.

Mark

Unless of course you go through with it and spend two years of your life and a special action on the basis that you'll get something with the next one....

Personally i'd rather spend the £1.70, However i like that fact you'll know you'll get something for the other cases, so I think this is a better system than what we have, of course i've only attempted one stellar cartography so far and i doubt it'll find anything.

As long as you have to have at least one, and it's staffed, i'd be happy, i don't think a ship should be able to jump into a system and find out though.

Alternativly you could have a small research, like a blueprint that doesn't need a techique, that told you what you'd get from the stellar cartography. That way you'd have to at least have spent the time to research that and not just be building single complex outposts everywhere to find out. Secondly it makes sense, to me anyway, that your scientists will have actually needed to spend some time in the system. Obvoiusly you'd only need one prior to mk I stellar cart

I like the Blueprint on the ship doing them SA idea. Just make the BP's System Specific so you need to do one for every system you are going to snoop in

Geoff

Im not keen on the blueprint idea, simply because it ties up even more research complexes; it makes getting SC even longer and harder than they are already.

Mark

How about a blueprint that tells you what you'll get but to get it you have to 'upgrade' it to the stellar cartography? (so you get a 100mus of research and lose the blueprint)

If people are worried about others getting the info by SA, how about requiring an active observatory complex to allow SC to be started/progressed? I'm sure that the profile etc. can be set appropriately

Dan

Thats sounds better, although it still means a stealth ship can enter a system do the SA and get tactical data.

I far prefer having to make an investment in a system to find out if there is a link there to a new system. That could simply be achieved by Mica only giving the SC results (via SA as normal) to a position that has xx research complexes. How any complexes is debatable - could be 10 complexes...could be variable based upon the system being explored.

It keeps it as a fairly big investment, with versitility and without the need to create new in-game items,bps or complexes to cover the issue.

Mark

I acutally ment a blueprint thats specific for that system (and would have to be researched into it), but i agree it still means added new things.

Although i quite like Thomas' idea of level one stellar cart being a fixed size and just telling you what you get.

I was thinking that would be detailed on completetion of the previous project. (so the point of the level 1 tech would be to detail what you get when you start real research)

That makes sense to me. Alternativly you could make getting the relevent information or starting the next level a special action, just to make sure it can only be done with the previous versions avalible and the like and to keep the special actions inline with what we have atm.

Tooling time for techniques is too short though. Imagine that you have 5 outposts in a system all doing 100mu a week then you ship them all to one place and have a mark5, much much quicker than everyone else has been able to in the past

What problems does this suggestion address? If I am not missing anything it is just a simplification of the old system, right?

Thomas

It still comes down to production rather than time.

We could however make it so that SC Techs can't be untooled, i.e. immovable, just like complexes and in fact would look like large arrays. It does stand to reason if they are calibrated to a specific location and further developments are unique add-ons. Then we can still have 1 SC tech per system and require multiple amounts. This will definitely solve a lot of issues.
The latest one being that one player knows about a jump 3 link through other means but as others do not he has to complete the next project and issue a special action at the end. With the above method I can allow him to leap-frog to the first unknown system, which would mean getting 4 or 5 SC's and save him a handful of specials.

All in all, this sounds like the winner.

Higher mk SC already has all lower marks as prereqs, so they need to remain at the research base already.

Thomas

Making SC a permanent installation does not seem to fit in with the way the game is designed. If you can untool a complicated thing like a higher level principle why can't you untool an array system?
And how would stargate key production work for example? Sounds silly to be forced to produce them in system...

Allowing higher level SC without having done the lower ones based on system information in a political (if I understand this right) would mean that nobody would transfer system information any more since it would be the same as donating tech to somebody. Again this completely goes againt how the game is designed I think. If this would be implemented, would I also be allowed to research photon weaponry mkII tech without having photon weaponry mkI tech because somebody sold me a copy of a photon gun blueprint?



Thomas

But a SC tech is something similar to a university or other complex, it is just a complex that has required research to construct rather than modules.

Actually, it has always been a pet peeve that stargate key production was removed from the system back to HQ. In BSE these could NOT be made aff research so had to be produced in the system they were researched - Phoenix opened a loophole.

In the above scenario, if someone transfered you knowledge of SC VII, you could not research it without having all the rest due to the huge penalty so transfering the info is pointless, in fact any transfer of the knowledge of the tech is pointless unless the person is expected to research it.
Knowledge of the SC tech does not grant knowledge of the system. Also if there are a number that are required to get a link, it still means that a player has to have a specific number of SC's to get the knowledge for themselves and these still have to be researched, one at a time within the system.

Even in the game now, if somebody transfers you knowledge of Photom Weaponry II tech, you can research it even though you do not have PW I tech.

I am a bit lost about the transfer of info argument, have I missed something.

In general I like this idea - although Im not keen on the immovable side. Perhaps, they could still be untooled but if used via SA to learn stellar data they are exhaustively used to create an actual Stellar Array Complex at that base. This being the only way to get the Array and its the number of these complexes that denote all the system links, etc you know about (ie if yo uhave 4 Arrays at a base, its exactly the same as having SC level 4). It means the tech itself is still portable, though it also adds the risk that someone could destroy the Array Complex (which are far easier to destroy than tech).

Regarding the research, can you clarify tha it is the number of SCs at a single base that count, or the number in that system? If its the number in the system (as has been mentioned) then it still allows multiple bases to very quickly do the multiple SCs to learn a whole host of stellar links.......


Mark

This won't make you popular with Thomas

Actually, he does have a strong point and I am partially swayed by his reasoning. I am sure he will post here soon explaining himself.

I agree with this if we are going down the "having multiple copies of tech" route in replacement for the mk system, being able to move them would just cause too many problems imo.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to just have a complex being produced rather than a technique but that seems to be the most sensible suggestion so far. Although this has the major drawback, from my pov, of not being able to copy a cartography for someone else.

I don't like this though, seems to easy to stop people find out stuff by captureing your base. Then again that might be a good thing.

You would probably need an SA to convert the SC to a complex - though this would be the same SA, hopefully, that nets you the stellar cartography data. I dont think it should be automatic,, so you can still have the technique at your base to copy - though it is effectively unused for the purposes of discovering the SC data.

I dont like the immovable techniques, as it messes around with the current system ie. complexes cannot be moved, but technology can. If we start introducing exemptions it not only makes the basics of the game even more complex, it sets a precedent. What else will suddenly become immovable?

Mark

Thinking some more on it, if the SCs were required to be hard to move, I would far prefer they had a longer tooling time than being immovable. Make them take as long as a principle to tool; that would really cut into the benefit of multiple bases doing the research.

Mark

All things are possible. Especially when there are Super Carriers for hire...

On a more serious note, I think that the "multiple copies of one tech" idea has serious flaws as pointed out, due to issues over the movement of tech (making SC tech immovable is bad as Thomas has pointed out, leaving it movable in this instance is bad because of the multiple outpost problem).

Personally, I much prefer the idea that Mica said about being the consensus this morning (i.e. level 1 is standard size, "blind" research; further levels are variable size, with outcomes known in advance).

Richard
AFT

I don't think that many affliations want to hire an Super_carrier... if they really need one, they just buy one OR ask Pirate Large to sell them one of the captured ones <g>

anyway I don't like the current SC methode.

Do you mean the "new" current method? If so what is it you dislike?

Dan

Ok, I'm relaitvely new to Phoenix and even newer to SC (so please don't bite ), but wouldn't this mean that you are sending a lot of ships on a one way trip to build up the base to perform the research. And these ships would be lost for a long period of time while the research is done.

Larger affs may be able to accept the loss of ships for a while, but it would be damaging to the smaller affs and slow their expansion.

But then like I say, I'm new so I may have got the wrong end of the stick.

Yep your right, and although i like the idea of one-way links i don't see how it could work as you'd basicly have ships stuck and rust away unless you could afford to ship 1000s of basic modules in at once. Even then it would depend on the project sizes.

I like the concept of and the link being knowledge, as opposed to a system knowledge meaning you can jump there, which gives you some of the same benifits, although would probably mean Mica and David making lots of changes

Although the multiple copies concept is flawed, regardless of if you can move the item or not, the problem it was trying to get around was not haivng a sperate tech value for each tech. Don't forget they all have to use a unique number and are in the range 8 500 to 10 000, a fair chunk of them are probably already used. (120+ systems * level 5 stellar cart is half the id space and thats excluding techiques in the research tree)

Why not dissemble your ships for modules then??

You could build some special designed ships "Colonizers" fi. which are actually made specially for those issues.

Yeah I got whacked round the head with the kipper!

Having chatted about it I have to agree with it. My initial thought was that it would be fun taking that much more risk with SC, however looking at it from a smaller Aff point of view it will be absolute nightmare trying to defend SC bases.

There are alot of affs out there who do not have the resources now to expand or even do their SC. If we now say SC tech cannot be moved then this will severely limit their capabilities to the point of not being able to do SC at all.

We should use the following system :

SC1 (1000MU) : Will not find any information until SC1 complete
SC2 (X000MU) : Will give results of what indicated at end of SC1
SC3 (X000MU) : The next system
etc

Andy

If we do end up using this system i think we should scrap the 10k mu limit, because with it your still in the system of "hey i've done three of these 10k projects now, surely mica won't let the next one give me nothing as well", of course that is 6 years down the line so maybe it's not a big issue

Looks like we will be adopting this, though for some unusual systems, such as those stuck out in the middle of nowhere, I may even make the first one greater than 1000mu. So the above will be a rule of thumb.

Edit
Typical, just as I submit this, another good idea is submitted first.....

I assume the tech would be linked to an Observatory complex of that system, rather than a specific Observatory complex?

I'm not sure i like the limit to one per affilation idea as it doesn't really fit with anything else we have, and although limit to starbase would mean people would have a pretty large investment in a system to get anywhere which is a good thing i'm not sure many people will appreciate this It can be hard enough to get starbases that pay for themselves let alone if you have to place one in a system.

Also you have a problem with the whole mulitple tech concept if your working with another affilation. For example say a small affilation highers a larger one to do the research for it, in exchange for access/starbase to the system or whatever, it's going to be a pain to have to copy stellar cartographys and effectively half your level as you shipped them to the smaller guys (also would you lose the knowledge that level X gave you?). Granted you could make the point that working on a copy of mark 4 could slow down production of mark 5 under the current system.

There would only be generic Observatory complexes - perhaps one subtype of each principle level, but certainly not per system. You can only research SC from within the same system so the system where it is built already determines the purpose of the complex.

Personally, I don't like the one-per-affiliation (per system) idea either, but it is better than meddling with the tech aspect (not moveable, variable sizes, etc.) by a long shot.

If Mica will just set periods of X weeks until a new link has been explored in detail and can be used safely, then perhaps we can forget about all the other obstacles and simply let players stack techs as in my initial proposal. It will possibly allow them to reach high levels very quickly, but there will be no way to quicken the time until the newly gained knowledge can actually be used. What's the gain in having level 20 SC when you cannot even reach the system found on level 1 yet?

Fair point, didn't think of that

True, non-movable tech has issues of it's own, i don't mind the variable size thing though.

Because if level 1 gives you system abc in x weeks and level 2 gives you system def in y weeks then if you can get both levels at the same time you can have both links in max(x, y) weeks. Now for two levels that doesn't make much difference, but for 10 it would.

I've got no problem with the idea of an Observatory complex being required for SC research - I suggested it after all - but so long as the size, etc. is large enough to make it obvious (making sure that it can't be placed in a cave is a reasonable step too), do we need to tinker any further with the SC setup? Variable size SC techs (or principles) are the preferable approach in my mind, because you enforce the sequential research without additional tinkering.

With regards to the link being the bit you research, I've been a fan of that concept for a while now. That doesn't mean that discovered links should always (or even often) be one-way, but it adds so much more variety to what SC can be used for.

Dan

How? Three copies of Stellar Cartography (1) should not ever be equivalent to stellar Cartography (3) under the sequential system - but being able to research then combine multiple copies of an identical tech would lead to that problem!

Dan

Ah, not made myself clear there. I meant to say that now we have a sequential system, and a possible problem with my proposal for the new system would be that the former sequential system could be circumvented using the new rules just as you say.

However, I feel that the Observatory would only scale down the problem and not really solve it.

Jump links as a knowledge type of their own does sound cool, but I fear we're heading towards a data overkill with each player having his personal copy of the whole game database stored with his political.

Thats what databases are for although i'll admit it would make the emails a little on the big side...

My vote is for this system. However could KJC please remember that creating stellar cart projects that require huge amounts of mass will result in frustration for players. Having 5000 mass required for a principle is bad enough and in reality take 2 years (on average) to finish.

Gareth

I would have thought that if SC tech now requires, or produces, an extra complex then any outposts currently researching SC would be given any "earned" or prerequisite complexes for free (if they had been implimented previously, we would have build them)?

I would also hope that any Observatory Complex - or any of the other changes - do not increase the cost of doing Stellar Cartography (in research or other resources). This whole thread is about making it less frustrating for players, not more expensive - so any complex required should be a free build (just a part of the SA used already t omake SCs operational).

Mark

Employees? Oh, those, ok

Mark

You seem to be linking observatory complexes with one of the suggestions - multiple copies of identical techs. But it is a separate suggestion in it's own right, that could be used (or not) with either the recently tweaked system (the one which I personally prefer), or the multiple identical techs (which has many problems associated with it)

Dan

no (as far as I understand). The initial SC would always be 1000 Mus to get an information base. This information base is needed to get more detailed information on the next project before the project is started (the SCmkII of variable size).

Just because we have been talking about SCII beeing 2k Mus or larger, this does not mean that SCII cannot be 1k Mus. It all depends which 'level' of SC the result would be found on. The level will still be the total amount of research points devided by 1000, just as it is right now in the game.
So if you would currently get a result at SCmkII (two pieces of tech at 1000Mus fixed size) you would still get this at 2000Mus total research mass in the new 'variable tech size' system, SCmkI would be 1000Mus (fixed size) and SCmkII would be 1000Mus too (variakle size but 1k Mus in this example as well since the system is level 2).

A 'level 4 system' would be 1k SCmkI and 3k SCmkII to find.

If there are multiple systems to be found from a single system where the research is carried out (say at level 1,3,4 and 8) then the SC projects would be 1k SCmkI with result, 2k SCmkII, 1k SCmkIII and 4k SCmkIV. A special action to look into the feasibilty of SCmkV would state that there is nothing to be found and thus no project.


Hope this is all correct

Thomas

Where a single system connects to multiple others, currently you have to research your way through the closest jump link before being able to find the furthest jump link (if there are two connecting systems, one 2 jump links away and the other 4, you have to do the SC for the 2 jump-link first). I would like a means to research the stellar cartography data for a specific link and not have to go through the chain of SCs to find the other systems first. If you know roughly where the 4 jump link is, you know which part of the skies to concentrate SC work on; the 2 jump link could be in the opposite direction, but you have to research it first.

Mark

Nothing suggested so far deals with this issue. It is always presumed that players work upwards through the levels and that later levels depend on lower ones.
Any suggestions for this scenario?

Not short of giving each link it's own stellar cartography. I mean, rather than levels 1 through X, you first complete stellar cart for the system which tells you that theres potentinally 3 links and a couple of hidden planets or something and for each of these it specifies a tech needed to start research into it.

It's just the same as the level system really as i think you only get one item at each level, but instead you can research them in any order (assuming one doesn't rely on the other for some reason).

You could actually combine this with the level system so that the first level might only tell you about some of the possible links and also give you details on futher research into the system (stellar cart mk II)

Of course it means loads more tech, and would be hard to stop people researching multiple links/planets/wormhole/stargate techs at once but it would be much more flexiable from a player point of view.

If there are known systems but research has not yet been done on them to access them (eg Inner Empire) then perhaps players can decide where they want to concentrate their research after level 1.

It is going to mean that further SC is only dependant on SC1 ie SC3 is dependant on SC1 and not SC2.

Perhaps this can be done on case by case basis.

I'm replying to Stephans post which it explictly states observatory complexes are a solution to multiple copies of a single SC.

Using observatory complexes in the game is adding to the burden of research for SC. If there was a different solution to the above problem I would post that observatory complexes are a pointless addition to the game as it adds additional burden to research when the current burden is already high. Big affs could cope with this but smaller affs with limited resources would be pushed further away from system research.

As it is I cannot think of a different solution so if multiple copies of a single Sc is used then observatory complexes will have to be used to control SC. As they are going to an additional burden then they must be 1000MU in size and only require 1 per base.

Personally variable size SC is far more attractive as it means no monitoring by the GM because it will be pointless to have more than one base doing the research in any one system.

Andy

Affiliations already co-operate on research for many items, why should SC be any different? Additionally not all affs sharing a system are also happy to share their tech, so restricting SC research to one aff per system would be detrimental to all but the first one to set it up.

A single aff with multiple bases in a system is a matter of resource allocation and if an aff can see an advantage of having more than one base doing the research it is surely up to them. I suspect that needing the previous SC tech level on site would make this a no-no anyway.

Geoff

PS Let us not forget that one of the objectives of Phoenix was to minimise GM input (or interference, depending on how you view it )

I think it involves 2 steps - the first is to make SCs independant and not stacked (so SC 2 does not have a penalty if you dont have SC 1).

An idea could then be to have 5 SCs for a system (any of which could be researched without penalty for not having the others) :

SC Main : This would give you broad data on your existing system (such as potential gravitational anomalies, etc), as well as telling the possible jump link to other systems.

SC 1 Jump : Finds the system - if there is one - that is 1 jump away
SC 2 Jump : Finds the system - if there is one - that is 2 jump-links away
SC 3 Jump : you get the idea.
SC 4 Jump : I hope.

If you wish, you could expand on this further (to link in with other ideas) - doing SC 1 Jump has the potential to find a system 1 Jump away. If it doesnt, it will tell you either there is no system at this distance, or that you need to do Sc 1 Jump level 2, which is 4000mus to find it.

The SC Main is a broad catch all that is used to help in your search for links, for exploring the system and all the other things SCs can be used for. The SC x Jumps, though, are purely the connection route to the new system.

mark

I would have a problem with that . Covert bases deep in enemy territory, mapping their hidden systems is surely a legitimate tactic? I have no problem with Observatories being large and hard to hide. You should have the option to expend time and resources to hide them though. Its hard enough to build up hidden bases to research IMP systems without detection as it is ...... apparently!

To make this worthwhile you would need 80 complexes in each base minimum which is alot to ship and build so I would say it is not going to happen anyway.

This is only likely to really happen in existing systems where there are multiple secure bases eg Capella, Yank etc etc so not really a problem.

if this is the case then why do we need observatory complexes - we don't it seems

yes, you should be able to hide them - but caves should not be useable... there are other ways, after all )

Dan

I disagree with you view here - why would the lack of the Tech item infringe on any skullduggery aspects?

Finding out if a starbase does SC is not getting any easier or harder. Just as is the case now, a agent action will result in the research project "stellar cartography" and which project this is can easily be determined from the location of the starbase.

Capturing the tech was almost impossible before and has not even been tried by anyone yet as far as I am aware. Not much of a loss if the new rules remove this possibility entirely. You'd have to capture the starbase within a single day or the other side would either scrap the tech or bring in reinforcements.

In another thread on this forum the question was raised how to steal (political) Information such as system data. This is the way to go in my eyes, not the actual 1000mu tech. Besides, if you have an enemy starbases with SC tech mkI to X, you would have to steal them all because you can never know which one gives a new system upon inspection.

I agree with Andy on this and think tech should stay and in some respects is essential to the way Phoenix operates (like blueprints having limited production, so needing multiple copies).

However remote, the possibility of capturing tech should still be there as a risk factor - didnt the IMP bloc claim they captured a ship with tech on it not too long ago? That sort of thing, even if rare, makes it interesting to me.

Mark

I agree too - the chance of capturing tech should remain

Dan

You also need something that can be picked up and delivered if you wish to transfer tech from one starbase to another. Having finished the SC research in a system where you have no strong presence it can be useful to be able to take it somewhere safe when you have studied the results

Geoff

(Editted by Steve-law to close the [quote]s)

I am all for variable tech size, in my opinion this is the best solution since it means the smallest change compared to how things currently work.


Thomas

In my opinion this can be incorporated into the varying tech size suggestion. If the base data from SCmkI in a system offers 3 different possible systems (one at level 2, one at 3 and 1 at level 5) there should be the normal way of researching these systems (stacked, higher one depend on all lower ones) and Mica could simply allow to research the 'level 5' system straight away without going through SCmkII and SCmkIII by introducing a special tech that only reveals the system from level 5 (e.g. 'SC dofus IV custom - 2500Mus').
This would allow taking 'shortcuts' and these shortcuts should of course have a special cost to them (increased project mass) or require some special prerequisite (knowledge of an adjacent system, IC knowledge of the system in the first place etc) that is up to the GM to allow it.

In the example above SCmkIV dofus would be 2k Mus after researching mkI, mkII and mkIII (1000 Mus each). The SC dofus mkIV custom would be 2500 Mus because normally you need bits and pieces of the mkII and mkIII SCs and would maybe require access to other restricted data to start it in the first place.
I like this solution because it offers scope to benefit the players (less overall research cost if you only want the higher MKs) and it is not an automated system but rather something where IC knowledge will be of value. Basically anybody can research it the normal way but (i.e.) since you have located this hidden base from an ancient race and found hints about a system hitherto unkown and complicated to jump into you will be allowed to start SCmkVII custom (only requires SCmkI as prereq) at 4k Mus compared to SCmkVII - 3k mus which prereqs would total 4kMus. So you can decide wheter you want 5k total project size and only the 'level 7' information or a 7k total project size but get level 2 and 3 information as well.

I do not think there will be that many SCmkX - customs projects due to special requirements (if handled properly by Mica ). I'd see it as a reward for something or a problem solver in some cases (you know already of certain systems but do not have the SC tech for it) but not as an option normally available in SC that needs some form of 'automation'.


Thomas

variable techs please

Me too

Geoff

Im against the exhaustive use of stellar cartographies, for three reasons :

- it will increase the overall cost of doing all stellar research from a system. before you did levels 1 to 4 (for example) and from system Main find the links to System Uno (1 jump away), Dos (2 jumps), Tres (3 jumps ) and Cuatro (4 jumps). This would take 4000mus to get all 4 systems. If the SCs are used up, this becomes 10 SCs.

- I like the risk factor (even if people think its small) of having SCs being stolen.

- If SCs become purely jump link based and exhaustible, what will replace them for the general stellar exploration of a system (using it to find unknown wormholes, etc)?

Mark

There are several ways to do this - the suggestion of creating a specific "SC Alpha to Beta" tech of appropriate size seems simplest... how often do these requests happen? An alternative is to stick to SC being a progressive thing as it is at present, and say that you will automatically discover the intermediate links as part of the research....

whioch is fine in itself to a point, but has implications for secret systems etc. If you wanted to take this route, I would prefer it to be for SC research to give the link between the two systems (rather than a system itself). You could do this by the link being given by a blueprint researched off of the particular SC tech perhaps...

this takes no account of a link being intrinsically "harder" to find (less stable, more complex etc.), but of the same hyperspace "distance"...which seems a shame

so would somebody mad enough to do the 70 SC (trinity) projects get the complete jump route from Sol? or just knowledge of Trinity so as soon as they found a system within range the system scan would show it?

Dan

edit: minor clarification

I agree, a seperate stellar cart for each link, and keeping the current level 1 through x for the system (ie wormholes, stargates, astroids etc etc) seem to me to be the most flexible and makes more sense. The whole being able to see 'public' systems seems a little wierd to me.

You'd have to say what link researches were avaible in the relevent level x of the system cartography (which impiles at least two researchs for a link, one for the system which gives you the relevent information and one for the link itself)

Viewing stellar cartography as something that it is actually mapping ISR supporting field around the destination star in order to successfully chart a jump route makes sense, and would also fit in nicely in the suggested stacked stellar cartography with variable size mechanics. The only difference is how you interpret the name of the tech that is beeing researched.
The tech SC - Muppet (can be researched in any system and you need varying amounts of them in different systems to gain knowledge of the Muppet system) is essentially the same as SC - Doofus mkII (TM text: locates the Muppet system from doofus). If you wanted to gain knowledge of Muppet from Indigo then the tech to start would be SC Indigo custom or SC Indigo - Muppet (3k Mus with or without out prereqs depending on what from where).
This can be applied to any type of SC research, either follow the ordinary stacked tech route with varying tech size or go down a custom route that needs to be defined case by case by the GM. The only drawback I see with this is that there will be more tech item numbers used (e.g. trinity from earth would probably be SC earth - trinity mk1 to mk14, each 5k mus), I do not know if this is a problem.

The advantages that I see are that we keep the flexible (untoolable) standard tech system, that the current way to produce stargate keys etc will stay the same (since tech is not burned when adding to archive) and so on, but a few SAs will allow you to research anything from anywhere at increased cost.
Basically nothing gets taken away from players, only more options are granted.

This would allow players to (still) simply 'research what is next' (most cost effective but undirected) and also specifically research what they want at increased individual cost. Also they will be able to find out beforehand (in most cases) what they get for what cost, which again iadded benefit for the players.


Thomas