gtdoug
This is following on from my post earlier on this subject.

I'm now using the 'move to quad' order followed by the 'scan location' order...

Seems to be doing what I want it too.

BUT...

How many TU's is a sensible amount to spot whatever is there (if anything)????

I've been using 60 Tu's per scan - as this is a Phoenix 'day'...

But I'm guessing this has a better effect in the lower numbered quadrants as they are smaller than the higher numbered ones...

Should I use more than 60 Tu's to scan the higher ones? or
Is 60 Tu's too small/high for any quadrant?

Any advice appreciated.

GTDoug.
Jerusalem
This is the million dollar question.

I haven't worked out what is best yet, but I think I have all the numbers I need to sit down and do the maths and work out the probabilities. Which, I might or might not do this weekend. The results of which might or might not end up being classified by the DTR authorities. smile.gif

As a rough rule of thumb, personally, I use 150-250 TU scans for outer OQs. And my gut feeling is that this gives me a roughly 30-40% chance of spotting something that might be there. I drop down the number of TUs for inner OQs because yes, as you say, those are smaller.

Space is big.
Dan Reed
Mica gave the answer I believe - the TU's are spent moving around scanning within the same quadrant instead of moving from one quadrant to the next. If so the below would be true (although I'm not sure of one bit and so stand to be corrected/informed too!)

Moving "around" a system gives a 1 in (ring number) chance of coming into range, and costs (ring number) x (ISR rating) TU's

moving radially gives 1 in (ring number squared) but only costs your ISR rating in TU's

For example, you move into OQ alpha 10 from beta 10 with an ISR 1 ship you have a 1 in 10 chance of coming into range at a cost of 10 TU's. If you do come into range of something a scan check is done (comparing your base sensor rating with target silhouette and any other modifiers) - you might get into range and still not scan something small.

this is the bit I'm not sure about:

Spend 100 TU's scanning instead of moving - with the same ship. You would either

a. get 10 times the chance (ie. definately come into range of everything in the OQ), or
b. get ten (1 in 10) chances to come into range

As a side effect of this, if you want to use a sensor ship for scanning (either using TU's to patrol, or within an OQ), it's better to fit ISR 1's smile.gif

Dan
ptb
QUOTE (Dan Reed @ 24 Sep 2004, 07:31 PM)
Spend 100 TU's scanning instead of moving - with the same ship. You would either

a. get 10 times the chance (ie. definately come into range of everything in the OQ), or
b. get ten (1 in 10) chances to come into range

I would guess at b, it would make more sense and only be very marginally more complicated to implement. This would give, assuming my maths is right, pickup about 65% of all ships. Assuming of course you have the scanners to notice them at all.
Jerusalem
Dan, are you sure about using ISR-1s?

I thought ISR-4s were best for scanning OQs. The analogy being the modern day submarine, which moves slowly, thus maximising the power of its sonar/sensors.
kilanuman
Mica have told me that ISR-4 are the best for scanning orbitals. As you move slower with them you spend longer time in each quad, thus increasing your chances of coming into range of interesting things.
ptb
QUOTE
the TU's are spent moving around scanning within the same quadrant instead of moving from one quadrant to the next.


if however the IRS-4 powered ships give better scans because they move slower and so have more time to scan, which perosnally i think seems reasonable, then the quoted line should probably be reverse. This is just me being fussy, but i, and others it seems, got the impression tus spend scanning were equvilent to tus spent moving and not tus spent moving being equvilent to tus spent scanning.. if that makes sense.

I would assume then that each tu has some kind of scan chance, probably very low, which is then modified by the square of the 'ring' of the quadrent. Which impiles the best scanning ships are, as prevously mentioned, high sensor rating, IRS-4 equiped ships. Although techincally the same tus on an IRS-1 equiped ship would give the same result the question is why waste the space, and force hull type, when you could use more sensors. Unless of course you needed to keep up with a patrol fleet or some such.

Well i guess it kinda makes sense to me now, although i'd love to know the numbers, but then i'm a number junkie. (read geek).
Dan Reed
As I said, I stand to be corrected. But if the key factor (in the outer reaches of a system) is getting into range of something so that you have the chance to scan it and not the chance of scanning something while you're in range of it then surely the best solution is to be able to quarter the OQ as quickly as possible?

I don't know the underlying mechanics, I'm just drawing logical-seeming conclusions from comments I've seen and heard... and like anybody doing that, I could be writing the equivalent of 2+2=5

Dan
Dan Reed
QUOTE (kilanuman @ Sep 26 2004, 03:29 PM)
Mica have told me that ISR-4 are the best for scanning orbitals. As you move slower with them you spend longer time in each quad, thus increasing your chances of coming into range of interesting things.

When you're moving through - using the patrol method of scanning a system I'd agree. But how about if you're not moving through the OQ to another one, but quartering it at greater speed to try to scan as much of it as possible?

for the moving through, ISR 4's spend longest time in the OQ. For moving within, ISR 1's cover more of it

Dan
Jerusalem
I wonder if there is sensor degradation the faster your ship is running. So the ISR-1 ship might well cover more space, but it could be effectively blind sensor-wise because it's running so fast.
Dan Reed
which would be perfectly fine, leading us all to make a personal choice and balance between getting in range, and scanning anything that is in range... exactly the kind of setup that we should have....

Dan
David Bethel
QUOTE
a. get 10 times the chance (ie. definately come into range of everything in the OQ), or


Its the above, as its supposed to be a search pattern.

QUOTE
Mica have told me that ISR-4 are the best for scanning orbitals


No - its the number of times you can pass through an area. So ISR 1 are best.
ptb
QUOTE (David Bethel @ Sep 27 2004, 11:37 AM)
QUOTE
a. get 10 times the chance (ie. definately come into range of everything in the OQ), or


Its the above, as its supposed to be a search pattern.

so chance = 1 / ring number per 'move'
a move costs = ring number * isr factor
therefore chance = 1 / ((ring number) ^ 2 * isr factor)

so it's pointless using more tus than the square of the ring number times the isr factor of your ship?

also it impiles that in rings above 18 means even using the 300 tus possible you won't get 100% coverage.

of course jsut them comming into range won't be enough for the scan, thats were sensor profiles and ratings come into effect right?
gtdoug
QUOTE (ptb @ Sep 27 2004, 10:45 AM)

so chance = 1 / ring number per 'move'
a move costs = ring number * isr factor
therefore chance = 1 / ((ring number) ^ 2 * isr factor)

Hmmm...

Okies - this looks cool for 'moving' but what about the chance by the TU's used in 'Scan Location' order???

ie ... how do I calculate what %age my 60 or 70 or 80 TUs of scanning gives me???

GTDoug.
Dan Reed
work out the chance for coming into range when moving, and multiply it by the ratio of (TU's scanned/ISR rating)

Dan

Dan Reed
QUOTE (ptb @ Sep 27 2004, 10:45 AM)
also it impiles that in rings above 18 means even using the 300 tus possible you won't get 100% coverage.

thankfully, most (all? possibly not biggrin.gif ) systems have only 15 rings...
David Bethel
QUOTE
so it's pointless using more tus than the square of the ring number times the isr factor of your ship?


No - because that gets you 1 scan for sure, the chances of that scan working is dependent on what you are scanning. If its a 100 hull heavy its 100% but if its a stealthed 10 hull heavy you are not going to see it without lots of sensors and you may have to 'pass' it many times to get an actual scan.

Since Scan chance = Profile + Sensor power (for quads)
David Bethel
QUOTE
thankfully, most (all? possibly not  ) systems have only 15 rings...


ISR drives don't work outside ring 15 and ring 15 is not a distance its a gravity level thing.
Jerusalem
Oh heavens. I started out being pretty damned confident I knew what I was doing with this whole OQ scanning lark. And now, I'm utterly confused. smile.gif

So let me take a stab at this:

ISR-4 ships are good for moving round and round OQs, going nice and slowly, they have a good chance of spotting things.

But.

ISR-1 drive ships are good for spending TUs inside an OQ running Scan Location orders, because it means they get to cover much more space?

Is that about right? Before I bring all my ships in and reconfigure them, removing ISR-4s and replacing with ISR-1s...

(Sorry David, I seem to spend a lot of my time in Phoenix being very dense indeed. smile.gif )
HPSimms
Scan results are more or less random anyway, I have had 100% scanner ships with 80+ sensors on board arrive at a location and fail to spot a fleet of 30+ 100 hulled ships, and a freighter coming in behind it with 5 sensors spotting a dozen of them.

A 300 TU scan with a decent sensor ship will usually spot most things in a high ring, but don't bet on it.

Might as well leave your ships as they are and hope you get lucky biggrin.gif

Geoff
Frabby
QUOTE (HPSimms @ Sep 30 2004, 10:37 AM)
Scan results are more or less random anyway, I have had 100% scanner ships with 80+ sensors on board arrive at a location and fail to spot a fleet of 30+ 100 hulled ships, and a freighter coming in behind it with 5 sensors spotting a dozen of them.

A 300 TU scan with a decent sensor ship will usually spot most things in a high ring, but don't bet on it.

It's the difference between encountering another position, i.e. coming within sensor range, and the actual (passive) scanning of a position within sensor range.

Location (ring number/orbit), time spent in a q/o either passing through or scanning the location, and Sensor Nets are the only factors that have any effect on the encounter chance.

In Geoff's example above, the sensor ships apparently didn't get into sensor range of the targets while the freighter took a different route through the q/o (or around the planet) and did come into range of at least said dozen of them.