Can players explain how they have decided on the sell prices for the ores.
Example:
Metal sales starts about 0.3$/mu while thorlium sell prices start from 1$/mu.
Is this a true reflection on production costs plus mark-up or is it simply the case that if players have spare money they will pay it, so charge what you can get away with?
Although, from my sources at least, metal is a whole lot easier to collect
And... it's spelled 'whores'... the 'w' is silent.
JJ
Hydrocarbons at 0.2 just because I wanted to put something cheap and cheerful on the market so that if people came to trade, there would always be something potentially useful to pick up.
And Fibrillium at $50 because there was only one other person selling it at $50, and there was only a very small quantity on the open markets, and it seemed as if it was rare enough to command such a high price.
Except I now see that Diathermy is selling 3000 @ 50, so I shall probably be dropping my price on it soon. If not removing it from the market entirely.
I also can't help but notice that the bottom seems to have dropped out of the module market too.
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 15 2005, 11:57 AM) |
| I have been looking at the prices of ores on starbase markets. Can players explain how they have decided on the sell prices for the ores. Example: Metal sales starts about 0.3$/mu while thorlium sell prices start from 1$/mu. Is this a true reflection on production costs plus mark-up or is it simply the case that if players have spare money they will pay it, so charge what you can get away with? |
I would suspect Ore value is based on;
Production costs - Total Ore/(Mines*10) + Carriage costs (ie; Transporter/shuttle complex wages / shipping costs) + markup.
- for this reason alone Thorlium will be more expensive than Metals as it is generally more expensive to mine/MU, and generally speaking the prime ore a base will be sat on will be Mets not Thorlium so there will more likely be some carriage to account.
Stockpile/ Supply & Demand - I suspect many bases sell Basic Elements and Hydrocarbons below the actual production cost because they have so many stockpiled and they can be produced in such quantities that the market is flooded with them
Market Prices - If your production costs are substantially below market prices, you can afford to add a higher mark-up...
For metals with an average yield of 150, the cost is 0.2$/mu though more likely 0.13$/mu based on average outpost personnel.
For thorlium with an average yield of 50 the cost is 0.6$/mu though more likely 0.4$/mu based on average outpost personnel.
So, you are both agreeing that absolutely nobody have exploited the mercantile niche, i.e. producing ores in large amounts simply to sell them on?
Is there any obvious reason for this?
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 15 2005, 01:59 PM) |
| For thorlium with an average yield of 50 the cost is 0.6$/mu though more likely 0.4$/mu based on average outpost personnel. So, you are both agreeing that absolutely nobody have exploited the mercantile niche, i.e. producing ores in large amounts simply to sell them on? |
Okay so for a single complex, 10 employees, ignoring all other factors as equal, costs 10 stellars, assuming at a starbase.
The thorlium is now only 0.2$/mu so assuming I sell at 1$/mu my profit margin is 0.8 * 50 = 40$/complex.
Mark I modules need no tech and can be build 1.2 units/complex, basic resource would be 50mus so lets be generous as say this costs us 15$, wages bring this to 25$/complex and can be sold fairly readily at 100$/unit, although this is changing so lets call it 80$, so 1.2units is 96$ and your profit is 71$/complex.
Pretty much why that niche isn't expolited, maunfactured goods are just more profitiable.
| QUOTE |
The thorlium is now only 0.2$/mu so assuming I sell at 1$/mu my profit margin is 0.8 * 50 = 40$/complex. so 1.2units is 96$ and your profit is 71$/complex. Pretty much why that niche isn't expolited, maunfactured goods are just more profitiable. |
Good answer.
So it is based on the false economy of artificially inflated produced goods.
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 15 2005, 02:38 PM) |
| So it is based on the false economy of artificially inflated produced goods. |
Well you wanted a realistic model no?
You've done a good job I'd say. | QUOTE (Jerusalem @ Nov 15 2005, 12:41 PM) |
| I also can't help but notice that the bottom seems to have dropped out of the module market too. |
yeah, I have been selling loads of modules in the past and demand seems to be almost gone now.. shen I joined I wasn't able to buy an single ICM at times and now you can't even sell it for an reasonable price...
| QUOTE (ptb @ Nov 15 2005, 01:29 PM) | ||
Okay so for a single complex, 10 employees, ignoring all other factors as equal, costs 10 stellars, assuming at a starbase. Pretty much why that niche isn't expolited, maunfactured goods are just more profitiable. |
another problem is that you can't easily increase production of some ores...
Metals/Hydro/Basic are quite easy to produce, sometimes you get even an resource location... but sometimes some of the more expensive ores (30 numbers) are only found in some location.
Why would I sell f.i. Collidium at my production cost (or lets say with 100% makeup) while I only have few sources for it???
Also higher mark items need more and more of those precious ores, which will mean that demand is growing in time... so maybe its better to stockpile untill that time is there..
| QUOTE (Sjaak @ Nov 15 2005, 03:13 PM) |
| and now you can't even sell it for an reasonable price... |
On the contrary: "and now you can buy it at a reasonable price..."
| QUOTE (Sjaak @ Nov 15 2005, 03:13 PM) |
| yeah, I have been selling loads of modules in the past and demand seems to be almost gone now.. shen I joined I wasn't able to buy an single ICM at times and now you can't even sell it for an reasonable price... |
That all depends if by reasonable price you mean a times eight markup
(seems to be what people selling trade goods think is reasonable anyway)Personally I think you still can't buy modules for a reasonable price
But then as Mica said
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 15 2005 @ 01:59 PM) |
| So it is based on the false economy of artificially inflated produced goods. |
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 15 2005, 01:59 PM) |
| Based on an outpost costing 30$/mine based on 15$ for employee with approximately 8 troops per complex (yeah right!) plus shuttleport costs. For metals with an average yield of 150, the cost is 0.2$/mu though more likely 0.13$/mu based on average outpost personnel. For thorlium with an average yield of 50 the cost is 0.6$/mu though more likely 0.4$/mu based on average outpost personnel. So, you are both agreeing that absolutely nobody have exploited the mercantile niche, i.e. producing ores in large amounts simply to sell them on? Is there any obvious reason for this? |
When it comes to ores - particularly Basic and Uncommon Ores - I would expect most bases would try to be, or at least be close to, self sufficiency, because relying on other markets to meet your demands could have a serious knock-on effect to your production.
Regarding Metals in particular, I suspect there are numerous starbases that - if they had no Mets production of their own - would require a vast number of cargo ships to keep their production going.
Edited Note -
Missed the summary point!
I'm not sure Starbases are going to gamble on traders filling their Metals demand, and I also suspect many players wouldn't want to spend time on turns for ships which just shift 3000-5000 MU's of mets around
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 15 2005, 12:59 PM) |
| Based on an outpost costing 30$/mine based on 15$ for employee with approximately 8 troops per complex (yeah right!) plus shuttleport costs. For metals with an average yield of 150, the cost is 0.2$/mu though more likely 0.13$/mu based on average outpost personnel. For thorlium with an average yield of 50 the cost is 0.6$/mu though more likely 0.4$/mu based on average outpost personnel. So, you are both agreeing that absolutely nobody have exploited the mercantile niche, i.e. producing ores in large amounts simply to sell them on? Is there any obvious reason for this? |
Im not a seller, more of a buyer.
I would buy minerals for two reasons - I couldnt find them myself, or I only need small amounts on an adhoc basis (no need for reliability just a big enough stock). For basic minerals, its easy to find them yourself and harder to constantly buy in vast amounts from someone else reliably (not to mention costing too much). So it only becomes worth it for more rare minerals.
I'd buy in thorlium, simply because my demand out strips what I can supply/find myself. But Id be looking to remove this dependance asap.
Also, in most things, it is generally cheaper to just do it yourself than pay someone else - both in stellars and in real time. Its easier to run an outpost than a ship. If you have to ship from another planet, its still easier (and quicker in time) to have your own outpost and ship.
There are general comments about there being less people buying modules. That could be because more people are building for themselves, or could be a sign that the stellars have dried up (which in itself makes it cheaper to do it all yourself too).
Mark
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 15 2005, 02:19 PM) |
On the contrary: "and now you can buy it at a reasonable price..." |
What do you consider an reasonable price???
I have seen mk2 Gatlings go away at 40 stellars per item... just to give an obvious example.
For other items it varies though. Level of tech, rarity of component materials and other factors can all affect the price. However, when we look at Quantum Jump Drives being $50,000 apiece, I think we can take a running jump. The AFT have done very well in tying down that particular technology.
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 15 2005, 04:54 PM) |
| For mk1 modules in particular, I would say 2.5 to 3 times the price of the item at most. IE: $100-$120. Myself, I have been selling modules on a private market at 1.5x - but that's another matter. |
2.5 to 3 times would be ~ 60$ - 75$ not 100$ - 120$ (based on a cost of around 25$ which is probably too high, last time i checked it was 25$ being very generous per complex, not per unit output)
| QUOTE (ptb @ Nov 15 2005, 04:33 PM) | ||
2.5 to 3 times would be ~ 60$ - 75$ not 100$ - 120$ (based on a cost of around 25$ which is probably too high, last time i checked it was 25$ being very generous per complex, not per unit output) |
an base consist of way more then just factories. Lets take an typical Basic Module.
Wages is 40/50*10=8 stellars, but you need to double that at least for tother things like troops and other complexes. Then you need to purchase 40mus of metal for at least 0.50stellar a mu (forget that 0.20 of mica, or do you expect all your mining to be running at 150mus/complex)?? That alone will give you 36 stellars. count in some extra 4 stellars and you got the avarge of 40stellars per 40 mu.
So.. 2.5 to 3.0 for the profit margin is quite reasonable.
Also if the average metal yield is 150 and what drop of 20 complexes, then i must say, i have not seen that many of those, they are there, but average seems way lower then that.
So if you are normal player with access to just average planets, then will you be using a 100 or 120 metal yield and most of the time they also tend to be below a 20 drop, so income wise, ores tends to be worth more then 0.2, but selling price overall depends on who got surpluss and how much it cost them to produce the MU
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 15 2005, 05:54 PM) |
| However, when we look at Quantum Jump Drives being $50,000 apiece, I think we can take a running jump. |
FYI
For some months now, QJ Drives have been available at $25K from AFT Eclypse.
though 
One sale at $25k (or $50k) is worth it for some, just to say that they have one, or even to gain the right knowledge so that they can possibly research it themselves, if the item isn't common knowledge. There is also the thought that one sold at $50k is possibly more achievable than ten sold at $5k...
The fun comes when a (trading) rival also gets access to the technology, and puts the same item on the market at a lower price - Like with all gizmos, the more supply there is, the more likely the price is to drop.
Dan
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 15 2005, 05:59 PM) |
| Oh, I thought the going rate for manufactured goods was around $1/mu? |
It is providing that the starbase has roughly an equal amount of troops, which according to our data is invariably not the case. Therefore 1$/mu is as PTB says too high an estimate and the true value is closer to 0.7-0.8$/mu.
Therefore the manufacturing cost of 40mu modules is probably around 30$.
As PTB says, the mark-up on modules has been excessive simply because players have been willing to pay it. This I can only presume has been the expansion phase of the game post-conversion as starbases have rapidly grown to fill the merchandising capacities.
Also, as in any market anywhere, supply and demand will always have a major impact on price. IM prices have gone down because they are a much more common item in theg ame than they used to be (correct me if I am worong folks, but only been playing 18 months). Where as QJE are a lot rarer so if you dont produce them yourselves, you are stuck with a sellers market place.
Basic Economics include the Laws of Supply and Demand
Any item, ore's or otherwise, is worth what someone will pay for it and has no relation to the production/acquisition costs. If the items cannot be sold for more than the production costs Supply available will go down, if there is an active market Prices will rise until Demand falls to an unacceptably low level (from the sellers point of view) prices will fall again, stabalising at a level where Supply and Demand are in equilibrium.
This works in Phoenix the same as it does in the RW. As for the demand for Modules, this is essentially linked to Starbase/Outpost expansion which, after two years plus, is slowing down because most long term Starbases are reaching, or have arrived at, their maximum practical size.
Geoff
I bought modules at a high price and sell ores cheap. Now I do not need any more modules I will be increasing the price of basic elements and hydrocarbons.
It's about making your base attractive for people to buy and sell at.
Prices also differ depending on the periphery you are in. I can get away with selling some ores at a higher price in Cluster as there are no other markets selling them in Cluster. Naturally you can get them cheaper elsewhere but you have to travel to get them. My base is catering for starbases in Cluster, which is why I try and bring items from Venice to Hazzard to sell when my ships are available.
The law of supply and demand
Andy
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 15 2005, 09:43 PM) |
| I know, but they used to be a lot more. $25k for a 50mu item is still though |
I was the starbase governor in charge at that time.
When I discussed with my PD what price we should put QJE on the public market at, the conversation went something along the lines of:
"Try $10K, and drop it until somebody buys one"
"I'll try $20K, and drop it for off-market deals"
The first $20K QJE's went within days... the $25K ones went just as fast... $30K... $40K... they were still selling on an occasional basis at $50K, on the public market.
Bare in mind that no less than three affs were claiming that they'd have their own QJE tech within a year (this was 18+ months ago). We were simply trying to make as much as possible while it lasted, without spoiling the attractiveness of AFT menbership = free Free trader.
A nice little earner... even though I was only on a 5% cut, the rest to aff funds. The starbase it'self would have been making big losses otherwise.
TonyH
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 16 2005, 01:41 PM) |
| Yup, one of the benefits of a seller's market I guess. I was intending something similar with the FGZ Integrity Stabiliser, but then it got into another affiliation's hands somehow, prices started to plummet - and then the device got made next to useless. Shrug. |
A key element here is making the price attractive enough to encourage buyers to buy the product from you as opposed to researching it themselves. If your price is high enough to make it worth researching, you have killed your own market.
I think the perfect example is the Hyper and Quantum jump drives. Because the finished products are so over priced (IMHO) it is worth researching them yourself. If the price was reasonable now, who in their right mind would spend the money to research them? Make a good profit but don't be so greedy that you create your own competition.
Greed is good.... Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.
Lord Goth
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 16 2005, 07:36 PM) |
| I started selling them at about $10,000 as I recall - the same price as Grav Lifters, KAS landing software, etc (at the time). I'm now lucky to get sales of $1,500. |
Market saturation, ask anyone who sells mobile phones, you need to jaz them up a bit
Geoff
| QUOTE (HPSimms @ Nov 17 2005, 11:47 AM) |
| Market saturation, ask anyone who sells mobile phones, you need to jaz them up a bit Geoff |
I would do, but the design team keep reducing the handset capabilities
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 17 2005, 12:57 PM) | ||
I would do, but the design team keep reducing the handset capabilities |
Maybe you could research a new Raspberry handset....
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 15 2005, 03:54 PM) |
| For mk1 modules in particular, I would say 2.5 to 3 times the price of the item at most. IE: $100-$120. Myself, I have been selling modules on a private market at 1.5x - but that's another matter. |
I think that the private deals that go on are for the most part detrimental to the market. I have been amazed by some of the deals I have seen and heard about. I have no problem doing a friend a favor on the private market now and then but it appears that most players conduct most of their business there. I think it is funny that some players have trouble with cash flow and are sitting on piles of products that they could sell on the open market.
I know that some players are afraid that an "enemy" might buy some of the products but I think that is silly (with the exception of highly restricted tech). The private deals are usually taken at a price far below market value. This reduces over all demand and makes the markets less liquid.
Some people look at the open market as a way to try and get lucky selling a few items at prices higher than they really should be charging. I look at it as a good chance to help others in a fair way.
I have made a fair mark up on items that I notice few others are willing to sell (until they notice them disappearing off my markets). Do I make items that I see a need for on the open market...you bet I do. Do I sell items I have extreme overages on at "below market" you bet I do. Do I buy products and "flip" them for quick profits...oh yes. Put these things into practice loosen up and use the OPEN market and you will turn a very nice profit. Keep to the old buddy private deals and you will keep bleeding out profits.....and I will eat your lunch.
Lord Goth
Free Market Guru
(he he he)
| QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 15 2005, 02:19 PM) | ||
On the contrary: "and now you can buy it at a reasonable price..." |
It sure seems like the public market has indeed dried up quite a bit. Even with the FET selling mods at $50 ea, the mods don't move....
Even weaponry and other produced items don't seem to be buying and selling much on the open market. Has everything gone to private deals or is everyone making most of what they need themselves?
It seems like the only decent markets of buying and selling in decent quantities are restricted systems (and I wonder how long their stellars would hold out if people started really selling product there).
Although, it seems that the designers feel there are too many stellars in circulation, I think it is getting harder to make ends meet if you do not balance your budget off of things like Merch centers and lux goods. The days of selling off a couple loads of Ind mods or BMs seems to be dead and gone.
Goth
There are still something like 1500 profitable trades for ships to take atm though, and there have been about the same for the last 6-9 months. Although some of the trades are mutually exclusive.
However I also feel the market as slowed somewhat, most of the trade I do with ships is now small quanities of luxuary goods, and the kind of prices people want to sell at means I ignore large groups of starbases completely.
I was sort of working on something like x9 local value. So if I have a unique that is worth $1, I'll sell it on my open market for $9, which gives freedom to the buyer to move it to somewhere with a x14 multipler, and make a nice profit.
Or is my reasoning faulty on this one?
Or change them for other unique of same value, to get better value of your own unique, this is what i will be trying to do.
| QUOTE (Jerusalem @ Feb 6 2006, 03:58 PM) |
| So what would you consider a fair price for a unique? I was sort of working on something like x9 local value. So if I have a unique that is worth $1, I'll sell it on my open market for $9, which gives freedom to the buyer to move it to somewhere with a x14 multipler, and make a nice profit. Or is my reasoning faulty on this one? |
Guess it depends on the base value of the good. I would say to make it worthwhile you need to set the price so that both the base buying the goods, and the carrier can make a minimum of $0.5-$1/MU each.
For higher end goods charging upto around 9x value can work, but for a good that has a base value of 0.2 the margins are too small.
Having said that I would like to see more of a profit to be made on the buy/sell prices of higher value goods that are produced in lower quantities as dealing in them costs more in time/MU for traders.
I sell the perishable ones at slightly less (7x) as the transporter and reciever get less in the end due to decay.
The problem with selling at x10 is that the cargo has to go a long way before it makes it's money back. It can often be more profitable to do shorter runs. Of course, if your market works at x10, then it's worth keeping it like that.
| QUOTE (Clay @ Feb 6 2006, 11:35 PM) |
| Of course, if your market works at x10, then it's worth keeping it like that. |
Obvoiusly sellers want to charge as much as they can get away with, and to be fair from a shipping point of view i'll do any trade that makes profit. So if you can sell at x10 and someone withing about 300 tus will buy for x12 then thats fine for me..
However for my own starbases I won't buy at more than x10, often I aim to buy around x6-x8, after all why should I pay more just because some seller has a unqiue good, plenty of other uniques and the popluation doesn't care which one I sell to them. It's a buyers market.
Besides at two of my starbases I only get x3, so no way I can buy uniques from anyone for them.
1) will pay periphery modifier value times the local value, so if its from darkfold, inner capellan or detinus, i will pay the 12 times local.
2) if from futher away, then will i pay those modifiers instead.
3) even give a bonus now, 5% extra, if local value of item is 1 or higher and 10% if 3 or higher.
So it can be done, to do it at more then 10 times local in buying, just depend on how big a profit you are looking for.
My own unique, i will sell for high value or exchange for similar value items from different peripheries, to get higher value on it.
This all ofc means private dealings.