The general consensus is that some things simply aren't worth shipping or trading.
The question therefore how much profit is considered worth the effort of inputting the orders?
Just to keep the discussion tight, base all comments on a standard caravel.
This has a weekly maintenance cost of 2% and 43 crew and 3200mu cargo space.
Example:
It has a standard round trip trade run taking 3 weeks, transporting 80 modules (3200mu) but bringing nothing back. It buys at 80$/module (SMS Convallis) and sells for 100$/module this it makes 1600$ (minus a couple of hundred running costs) equating to a profit of about 450$/week.
Is a profit of 450$/week considered a good trade run or a waste of time?
How much profit per week is this ship expected to make?
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 24 2005, 09:52 AM) |
| We booted off the discussion with ore prices which led onto why it is better to trade in produced goods - profit margin. The general consensus is that some things simply aren't worth shipping or trading. The question therefore how much profit is considered worth the effort of inputting the orders? Just to keep the discussion tight, base all comments on a standard caravel. This has a weekly maintenance cost of 2% and 43 crew and 3200mu cargo space. Example: It has a standard round trip trade run taking 3 weeks, transporting 80 modules (3200mu) but bringing nothing back. It buys at 80$/module (SMS Convallis) and sells for 100$/module this it makes 1600$ (minus a couple of hundred running costs) equating to a profit of about 450$/week. Is a profit of 450$/week considered a good trade run or a waste of time? How much profit per week is this ship expected to make? |
For me it wouldnt be worth it for two reasons (well three, but is Greed a real reason?) -
1) Looking for/setting up trade deals takes RW time, as does putting in those orders. I generally find its hard to get big bulk trades (for a squadron) so would have to spend the same time per ship. The RW time wouldnt make it attractive
2) The ships construction cost needs taking into account - 12,750mus, with a book value of 127,500. Id like to make that back in a year (tops) - I could "use" that cash/production elsewhere and get a quicker return.
So Id like 1 stellar an mu a week profit as a trader (but might settle for half that I guess).
Mark
But if production costs are 1$/mu and sold for approx 2-3$/mu, the true cost of the ship is only about 30k$ (ignoring book value) which is only about 650$/week or 0.2$/mu (actually 0.08$/mu if you can build the ship yourself - which increases 0.1$/mu if you factor in 60$/week running cost for a ship) to pay for itself in a year.
| QUOTE (Watcher @ Nov 24 2005, 12:34 PM) |
| For me it wouldnt be worth it for two reasons (well three, but is Greed a real reason?) - 1) Looking for/setting up trade deals takes RW time, as does putting in those orders. I generally find its hard to get big bulk trades (for a squadron) so would have to spend the same time per ship. The RW time wouldnt make it attractive 2) The ships construction cost needs taking into account - 12,750mus, with a book value of 127,500. Id like to make that back in a year (tops) - I could "use" that cash/production elsewhere and get a quicker return. So Id like 1 stellar an mu a week profit as a trader (but might settle for half that I guess). Mark |
Looking for /setting up trades deals does up take a lot of time, but for those who like trading, or those who need the cash, it's a necessary evil.
You can purchase standard caravels for around 60k these days (eg RIP have been selling them recently), so you could in theory make that back in a year on these kinds of trade runs.
$450/week profit isn't bad for new or indie players but probably not worth it for someone pushed for time/after big profits.
Personally, I still go for these deals, rather than have my caravels sitting around doing nothing, costing me wages.
cheers
weenie
If I have a choice of either spending the time to find the deals, and then putting in the orders and making $450 in a week, or alternatively not spending the time, not doing the orders, and therefore not making any profit.... well, lets just say my ship would be on it's way to get those modules! (Unless there was a more profitable run just around the corner of course!)
Not forgetting as well, (although maybe a little off topic), trade isn't JUST about profits, it is also about building trade relations with people for future deals. I might very well be willing to do a few low profit trade runs to build up a relationship with a supplier / buyer which can then lead to better deals.
Just my 2pence worth
(As weenie has now beaten me too it, looks like we are singing from the same sheet!)
(Edit - oops sorry weenie - missed your bit at the end of the post stating this as well!
)M
So you can buy a caravel for 60k, thats nice, but if you are a relative new player on your own, then will you need the best possible deals, why because if you manages to loss that ship to lets say PIR from mistake or other reasons, then how do you now replace that loss, 60k if it takes a year to get, then you also have to keep it clear of PIR, which means there is also lots of places you will not go, because the friendly bases can be far between, especially if you also happen to be IND.
Perhaps a GM banking system, where you can borrow stellars <g>
| QUOTE (DEN_weenie @ Nov 24 2005, 01:01 PM) |
| You can purchase standard caravels for around 60k these days (eg RIP have been selling them recently), so you could in theory make that back in a year on these kinds of trade runs. |
Thank you Weenie (for the free advertising).
I am still selling Caravels... 65k ono is this weeks offer...
Doug.
| QUOTE (Garg @ Nov 24 2005, 01:16 PM) |
| Mica, you seem to forget there is other players in the game, not just the big merchant players. So you can buy a caravel for 60k, thats nice, but if you are a relative new player on your own, then will you need the best possible deals, why because if you manages to loss that ship to lets say PIR from mistake or other reasons, then how do you now replace that loss, 60k if it takes a year to get, then you also have to keep it clear of PIR, which means there is also lots of places you will not go, because the friendly bases can be far between, especially if you also happen to be IND. Perhaps a GM banking system, where you can borrow stellars <g> |
Indie/new players can always be sponsored by kind benefactors...
I wouldn't have thought that I was the first "entrepreneur" to invest in a newbie and loan cash to them to buy their own ship?
Ok, I've placed a lot of trust in this player and there's risk in "Sponsoring a Newbie" but there's profits to be made out of this risk!
cheers
weenie
PS - best warn them about pirates or that's my investment gone up in smoke...
If you need a year to get enough money to afford a new ship, then many new players might see that also as a disappointment, as they hear that others have hundreds.
Consider it, a caravel takes 1 year to repay for itself, so in 1 year you got 2 caravels, next year 4, then 8, 16, but thats 4 years alone
I think thats why many will not consider it, also to make lesser profit, for something that might take you hours a day to sort out, is also not something many will want to do, waste of real life time
I'd consider $450 pw better than nothing...but not very.
It isn't a case of 'does it support the ship' but 'does it help me reach my objectives in the game' - nobody is trying to earn stellars just to be 'rich' within the game - it counts for next to nothing. They may want to BE rich in order to acheive other goals, but it isnt really the way to go about it - far better to pay your £2.25 a week running one of the cash-generating starbases for the major affs; most would let you pocket the net profit and a slice of the production, as long as most of the factory production/shipbuilding/research/whatever goes towards affiliation goals.
Lets see you want to get to be a semi-independent operator, into shipbuilding: You would need a minimum 50 complex starbase, blueprints, workforce... it would take years. Even just owning your own traing vessel - several affs will lend you the actual ship while you earn enoough stellars with it to buy it off them... at $450 pw that would take... five years!
Not enough for me. I effectively did 'buy from aff' by raising the cash through the trading activity of the ships I was buying, but it didn't take that long, and I wouldn't have bothered if it had.
TonyH
I also tend to look for routes that are the shorter the better - ideally with a one-week turn around, and preferrably with an item I can bring back on the return leg too. For that matter, if I can find a three-way trade (item from base A to base B, item from base B to base C, item from base C to base A) then all the better.
That said, and as mentioned - it's rare for me to trade on public markets nowadays.
| QUOTE (Garg @ Nov 24 2005, 02:30 PM) |
| well it have to do with, will this pay off or not. If you need a year to get enough money to afford a new ship, then many new players might see that also as a disappointment, as they hear that others have hundreds. Consider it, a caravel takes 1 year to repay for itself, so in 1 year you got 2 caravels, next year 4, then 8, 16, but thats 4 years alone I think thats why many will not consider it, also to make lesser profit, for something that might take you hours a day to sort out, is also not something many will want to do, waste of real life time |
By the same token, get fifty players to lend you 50 ships and pay them all back in a year and you have 50 ships!
In my opinion I have a lot of other stuff to be doing with my cargo ships than waste time trading for small profit. If I see an opportunity and have ships available / in the area I'll send them.
I'd prefer to build another base with great merchandising potential to stay out of the red and help build the infrastructure of the Affiliation. This is far more important to me.
I do realise that affs do have to do this, however there are players out there who do not like trading so please don't implement anything that will make trading with ships a necessity as it will take the fun from their game.
Andy
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 24 2005, 04:30 PM) |
| By the same token, get fifty players to lend you 50 ships and pay them all back in a year and you have 50 ships! |
A number of dealers have done offers like that, normally to IND or new players (neither of which have the production to build lots of ships in most cases)
Personally I'm happy with 0.5 $/mu/300tus so 1600/week per caravel. However last week i actually transported something like 17 luxury goods because I had a ship in the middle of nowhere with 300 tus and no decent routes. So basicly it comes down to the fact any profit is better than none.
Also recently I've tried to start and end trades in a single week which as limited my options a little.. thanks for that mr. pirates
| QUOTE (Andy @ Nov 24 2005, 05:11 PM) |
| Personally if I ever sell anything it is to sell produced goods to another base that I have produced myself so I try and look for a profit of 5-10k stellars profit per ship as a minimum. |
just shows it's a sellers market really, If you make 5-10k with production and transport, and i make say 2k with just transport (on average) then 3-8k is to the selling starbase.. not to bad really as if you ask me trading with ships is a whole lot more effort (personal effort although not real life cash...)
50 ships dedicated to trade is harsh work and on the other hand, just how many people do you think will give a ship to a IND or new player? <g>
Be a bit more realistic mica
| QUOTE (Andy @ Nov 24 2005, 04:11 PM) |
| I do realise that affs do have to do this, however there are players out there who do not like trading so please don't implement anything that will make trading with ships a necessity as it will take the fun from their game. |
From the draft of the pubmeet presentation:
If this side of the game holds no interest for you and you have already sorted out your merchandising, do nothing to change the status quo of the world. Sell only unique items that cannot affect infrastructure and build no more merchandising.
And later:
There are a lot of worlds in the game that generate 40k$ per week for the starbase through merchandising and another few thousand through sales to local population. The conversion will not actually change anything on this fundamental level. Starbases can still generate this amount of stellars providing that the same levels of sales are made to the world as are currently occurring. However these worlds with their affluent populations will be prepared to pay much, much more for items, i.e. they may start with indexes around 1, but these can grow. If starbases sell them goods at prices above the general market value, the stellars that are currently used for brokering will gradually be channelled into buying items, i.e. the demand and the indexes will grow.
| QUOTE (Garg @ Nov 24 2005, 04:40 PM) |
| Be a bit more realistic mica |
You gave one extreme I countered with the other.
The middle road is more likely, a couple of ships here a few ships there. Some making good trades, some less so. Those interested in trade however have the potential to increase trade in the game as a result of the infrastructure upgrade - just in case you hadn't guessed this from the nature of my questions.
But as it is now, then its not extreme what i said, i used afterall to be a major merchant player and saw these problems early.
So give us more info on what you are planning, dont want to wait until after that meet, i want to know now
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 24 2005, 04:43 PM) |
| Those interested in trade however have the potential to increase trade in the game as a result of the infrastructure upgrade - just in case you hadn't guessed this from the nature of my questions. |
Hooray
I think a lot of people need to remember that there is more to this game than just building big fleets to attack other big fleets, yay for trading!
Phil
| QUOTE (Sees With Knowledge @ Nov 24 2005, 06:56 PM) |
| I think a lot of people need to remember that there is more to this game than just building big fleets to attack other big fleets |
There is? Dang, I'll just have to scrap those 50 baseships I just finished building... <g>.
In jest,
Rich H
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 24 2005, 04:40 PM) | ||
From the draft of the pubmeet presentation: If this side of the game holds no interest for you and you have already sorted out your merchandising, do nothing to change the status quo of the world. Sell only unique items that cannot affect infrastructure and build no more merchandising. And later: There are a lot of worlds in the game that generate 40k$ per week for the starbase through merchandising and another few thousand through sales to local population. The conversion will not actually change anything on this fundamental level. Starbases can still generate this amount of stellars providing that the same levels of sales are made to the world as are currently occurring. However these worlds with their affluent populations will be prepared to pay much, much more for items, i.e. they may start with indexes around 1, but these can grow. If starbases sell them goods at prices above the general market value, the stellars that are currently used for brokering will gradually be channelled into buying items, i.e. the demand and the indexes will grow. |
If it makes trade more interesting (profitable?) for those interested in it great :-) I cant wait to see the full infrastructure changes (I live for that side of the game!). My only comments from the snippets released though, are what mechanisms are in place for when there are multiple bases on a single planet, some wanting to build up infrastructure, others wanting nothing to change?
I also assume manufactured goods will always earn more from the populace than merchandising (brokering) (otherwise why would a governor change from one to the other)...and that brings in the issue of a starbase simply manufacturing everything itself to sell for far more money than before?
Mark
Obviously he doesn't know much about FET
Any amount of stellars made over and above expenditure is a good thing.Personally I love the trade side of the game and try to do what I call speculative trading each week.I look through all the public market reports to see what's about and go for anything that will make a profit.Sometimes I have no clear idea of where I may sell any goods I do buy.That's where the speculation comes in.
Yes it does help having a reasonable sized trade fleet that is spread all over the Peripheries ready to run in and grab those bargains!
As I've said any profit no matter how small is still profit.A lot of small profitable deals soon add up to a lot of money if you stick to it.
Just look at the IND guy(sorry I've totally forgetten who
)that has been around for maybe a year or so.He recently started up his own aff so he made a million stellars.No idea if he had help from a bigger aff,but it does show that being an IND willing to work hard does pay off. | QUOTE (Ro'a-lith @ Nov 24 2005, 10:17 PM) |
| That'll be Julian Tovey, with Garcia Enterprises (GCE). And well done to that man is all I can say |
Hear hear!
Well done, Julian!
cheers
weenie
So profit is always (oddly) my first concern. If there's nothing great nearby, I'll see what other big-profits are to be had, and do that - usually looking to see if there's any profit to be made on my way to that better deal.
I generally look for profits of >1000 $$$ for a weeks work. Any less than that and it's just an exercise in keeping some trade flowing for the good of the game.
I'm trying to get away from shipping my own goods, simply to try and help keep trading alive for the the non-starbase owners. My regular visitors to Fertile Futures will probably attest to that.
| QUOTE (Watcher @ Nov 24 2005, 08:29 PM) |
| My only comments from the snippets released though, are what mechanisms are in place for when there are multiple bases on a single planet, some wanting to build up infrastructure, others wanting nothing to change? |
From the presentation:
If your starbase is on a world with starbases owned by players that want to mess around with merchandising – Yup, you guessed it, you are screwed, but only in the same way that not being interested in combat does not prevent you becoming and unwilling participant!
| QUOTE (Clay @ Nov 25 2005, 04:55 AM) |
| I'm trying to get away from shipping my own goods, simply to try and help keep trading alive for the the non-starbase owners. My regular visitors to Fertile Futures will probably attest to that. |
Besides if you can sell your own goods for more than you can buy someone elses and sell on you make profit twice
No chance of this with just selling what you produce now is there
If such were possible, you could then introduce modifiers for items sold between the different factions. For example, someone able to obtain an item sourced by an FLZ starbase selling the item on at a FEL starbase (War) could bring in a higher amount - whereas an item sourced at a FEL starbase sold at an SMS starbase (ally) would bring in a lower amount?
no different than us in blighty going for an indian meal a FGZ might be up for a bit of human nosh and pay that bit more.
Gandolphs fish n chips, new shop opening near you.
Perhaps just a higher usage of this - working with negative modifiers too! - would see an increase in cross-affiliation trade?
IE: I sell my Istrian Mushrooms to the Flagritz on Celeste for a nice high modifier, but the mushrooms are completely unpalatable to humans/kastorians/wimbles/etc/etc - so those races recieve a negative modifier to the amount the item makes if sold to those species?
Assuming these can be manufactured (never tried), their value should be in line with other manufactured items, ~$1-3/ MU, and fetch a consequently higher price when sold on to planetary populations.
Not sure how this could work, but some attention in this area is needed, without letting factions controlling vast-demand planets get incredibly rich just by setting up a dedicated production line - demand segmented by trade item value bands could be an improvement - a vast demand for the products of ultra high-yield resource complexes, and 1% of the market maximum for Atlantean silverware or Botolphian pearls.
As with so much in life, I am unclear on how the infrastructure changes will upset things, and am keenly looking forward to being further confused next week.
TonyH
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 25 2005, 08:14 AM) | ||
From the presentation: If your starbase is on a world with starbases owned by players that want to mess around with merchandising – Yup, you guessed it, you are screwed, but only in the same way that not being interested in combat does not prevent you becoming and unwilling participant! |
As long as its possible for the starbase preferring merchandising to "fight" back, or do pre-emptive defences (economically speaking, such as lucrative deals with the major companies) then its comparable ie. the new system allows for the population to be persuaded that the old system (brokerage, etc) is better.
Mark
PS. My aim is to get as much of the presentation beforehand as possible
| QUOTE (Watcher @ Nov 25 2005, 03:41 PM) | ||
As long as its possible for the starbase preferring merchandising to "fight" back, or do pre-emptive defences (economically speaking |
Considering how easy it is to be an non participant in a war going on on the same planet as you have starbase I don't really see how this is an accurate comparrison.
Personally I'm all for more trade options regardless, granted some people won't like what you change and considering how badly run my starbases are i'll probably be one of them
but that vast majority of changes however much they have annoyed people have improved the game in the long term, and trading / infrastructure needs improvement..Just expect a lot of special actions (and re sumitting of actions) when you have this up and running
| QUOTE (Watcher @ Nov 25 2005, 02:41 PM) | ||||
As long as its possible for the starbase preferring merchandising to "fight" back, or do pre-emptive defences (economically speaking, such as lucrative deals with the major companies) then its comparable ie. the new system allows for the population to be persuaded that the old system (brokerage, etc) is better. Mark PS. My aim is to get as much of the presentation beforehand as possible |
I guess you could always blow them up if they get too silly....
Goth
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Nov 24 2005, 10:52 AM) |
| Is a profit of 450$/week considered a good trade run or a waste of time? How much profit per week is this ship expected to make? |
Going back to your first set of questions, after looking at my weeks turns.
450$/week is not a good trade run, and i expect an average of approimatly 1600$/week
Last week I had ships making from as low as -50$ to as high as 4k$ some weeks are good some are bad.