We are looking at the function and still have to decide exactly what we will do, but there will almost certainly be an exponential fall-off in dodge bonus as it increases.
This will prevent all current weaponry becoming obsolete.
We will let you know what we have decided ASAP.
Problem 1: How do hulls survive this?
a) Momentum
Under the current rules, base dodge is determined from combat speed and modified by hull type: x2 for heavy hulls, x.5 for light hulls. You could say that heavy hulls are more compact than clumsy merchant hulls and thus have less momentum, therefore being able to evade quicker in combat, but I think the difference is too big.
StressWhat I am missing here is stress damage. Evasive maneuvering puts the ship on the very edge of its performance parameters (or beyond). This should come with stress damage, i.e. a reduction to integrity and/or actual hull damage. Perhaps 1% per round, with the usual hull type modifier. This way you can force a ship to evade to death over a long time, without having to hit it once.
(Real-world example: The MiG-25 Foxbat is so fast that a full turn at top speed would damage or even destroy the aircraft.)
Problem 2: How do the crew survive this?
Despite modern pressure suits such as the german Libelle design, human combat pilots suffer a blackout at +12g after only a few seconds, a redout at -7g. The thought of a ship maneuvering in excess of 20g is frightening. Ships crewed by humans should have limits around 15g for maneuvering.
This could be a wonderful opportunity for more racial differences. Kastorians, for example, are expressly described as a high-g race. Why not adjust their stats to only 3 crew factors but allow them to operate at +25g.
Also opens up possibilities for a new line of items, like grav decks (quarters that will give +15% gravity allowance) or pressure suits (for individual crewmen).
Certain items could also have gravity limits.
Problem 3: Dodge gets better, targeting gets worse!
While it is fairly easy to build ships with very high dodge values it is almost impossible to build ships that can match their speed and still have a chance to hit anything. The defender just has to install more engines, the attacker has to compensate for his increased maneuverability by mounting more and more sensors and targeting computers.
If the speed of attacker and defender just cancel each other out before dodge is calculated then the problem might be solved.
Problem 4: Currently, the Dump Cargo And Flee option is pointless
This is another aspect of the ever-faster warships: Piracy as described for Phoenix does not work. The default setting is to 'flee' and few people can be bothered to change this to 'dump cargo'.
I suggest dumping cargo should get a freighter an exceptional speed boost to get away, depending on the thrust rating of the freighter and the ratio between ship mass and cargo mass.
| QUOTE (Frabby @ Dec 4 2003, 06:12 PM) |
| What I am missing here is stress damage. Evasive maneuvering puts the ship on the very edge of its performance parameters (or beyond). This should come with stress damage, i.e. a reduction to integrity and/or actual hull damage. |
Hi,
I was assuming that stuff like this was already accounted for in the Captain's bonus to dodge. i.e. an experienced captain would have a better idea of what the ships limits were so could squeeze more dodge out of it without exceeding the physical limits of the hardware?
| QUOTE (Frabby @ Dec 4 2003, 05:12 PM) |
| Problem 4: Currently, the Dump Cargo And Flee option is pointless This is another aspect of the ever-faster warships: Piracy as described for Phoenix does not work. The default setting is to 'flee' and few people can be bothered to change this to 'dump cargo'. I suggest dumping cargo should get a freighter an exceptional speed boost to get away, depending on the thrust rating of the freighter and the ratio between ship mass and cargo mass. |
It can give a huge boost and ignores all hull limitiations. I suppose it should really state dumped cargo flee speed on the turn printout.
| QUOTE (Frabby @ Dec 4 2003, 05:12 PM) |
| Problem 3: Dodge gets better, targeting gets worse! While it is fairly easy to build ships with very high dodge values it is almost impossible to build ships that can match their speed and still have a chance to hit anything. The defender just has to install more engines, the attacker has to compensate for his increased maneuverability by mounting more and more sensors and targeting computers. If the speed of attacker and defender just cancel each other out before dodge is calculated then the problem might be solved. |
I witnessed a dodge of 25.
What about the starbase and platform that are targeting it? They still cannot hit even with +12 ACC, +12 Tractor Beam.
The problem is that the ship has no intention of doing anything more than bugger about, but ties up ships from the enemy lines. In reality these ships would not be seen as a threat so would not be targeted. It does seem however pointless putting in more and more complicated code and more and more accurate weapons simply to compensate for something that is in its own right a bit naff. It is better to remove the naff bit in the first place.
Fast manoeuverable ships should be a tactic, not the only tactic. We will not set Phoenix down the BSE Photon Gun road.
| QUOTE |
| A few thoughts on dodge: Problem 1: How do hulls survive this? a) Momentum Under the current rules, base dodge is determined from combat speed and modified by hull type: x2 for heavy hulls, x.5 for light hulls. You could say that heavy hulls are more compact than clumsy merchant hulls and thus have less momentum, therefore being able to evade quicker in combat, but I think the difference is too big. StressWhat I am missing here is stress damage. Evasive maneuvering puts the ship on the very edge of its performance parameters (or beyond). This should come with stress damage, i.e. a reduction to integrity and/or actual hull damage. Perhaps 1% per round, with the usual hull type modifier. This way you can force a ship to evade to death over a long time, without having to hit it once. |
This simply means that the ship will have to return for maintenance between combats. It is a pain for the player but does not really solve the problem.
| QUOTE |
| Problem 2: How do the crew survive this? Despite modern pressure suits such as the german Libelle design, human combat pilots suffer a blackout at +12g after only a few seconds, a redout at -7g. The thought of a ship maneuvering in excess of 20g is frightening. Ships crewed by humans should have limits around 15g for maneuvering. This could be a wonderful opportunity for more racial differences. Kastorians, for example, are expressly described as a high-g race. Why not adjust their stats to only 3 crew factors but allow them to operate at +25g. Also opens up possibilities for a new line of items, like grav decks (quarters that will give +15% gravity allowance) or pressure suits (for individual crewmen). Certain items could also have gravity limits. |
Special Hi-G resilient races will mean that a player will just use the appropriate crew on their nippy ship. Again, it does not solve the problem, just makes it a little more time consuming/pain in the ass accumulating the specific crew.
This said, if combined with a exponential fall-off dodge bonus, there may well be thresholds where the bunks for extra crew are balanced against thrust from engines. This will lead to most effective designs.
Perhaps to solve the problem, you remove the double the dodge for manouvering, as this is in effect a little bit unlikely that it would increase the performance 2 fold just because your getting out of the way, this would then negate your problem for the majority.
But obviously the best way if for dodge to top out at around 8 then every combat engine that is installed has only a minor increasing effect, as is with targeting computers etc.
trust somebody to come up with a ship like that anyway..........
| QUOTE |
| Under the current rules, base dodge is determined from combat speed and modified by hull type: x2 for heavy hulls, x.5 for light hulls. You could say that heavy hulls are more compact than clumsy merchant hulls and thus have less momentum, therefore being able to evade quicker in combat, but I think the difference is too big. |
Its about right based on the distance metic for the hull (heavy hulls are 1/2 the size in a straight distance which is what causes raw torgue). Also heavy hulls mass is directed at being more structurally sound
| QUOTE |
| I suggest dumping cargo should get a freighter an exceptional speed boost to get away, depending on the thrust rating of the freighter and the ratio between ship mass and cargo mass. |
It does.
The dodge is:
Dodge of cargo ship with effective stress of x1 (more if actual stress is better) with out cargo
+ Upto the above dodge (again) based on % of cargo droped.
If you drop all your cargo you are looking at your base speed x2 = dodge
| QUOTE (David Bethel @ Dec 5 2003, 08:09 PM) |
| Ok dodges are getting silly, most speed dodges will not be allowed past 8, and no trunctation is likely below 6 - but only to the speed component. |
I agree with the need to control dodge levels - if the ability to-hit is difficulty to increase (with the drop off in target computer bonus for example), then the ability to dodge should follow a similar system.
My only concern is the effect this will have on the inertial dampner, which improves dodge; if the dodge from engines tails off, it makes the item better. If dodge is to have some sort of fixed maximum, it makes it weaker (it might become slightly better to simply research one BP and have combat engines up to the maximum dodge and not have to research the inertial dampners at all).
Mark
dodge is either too high or it isnt, if you manipulate it for certain items, then surely it negates the whole reason why they are doing this in the first place.
i wouldnt worry though its bound to have some form of effect to the good, but if they get to a maximum level of 8 before it tails off badly then thats how it has to be, otherwise other affiliations could argue for a higher dodge to allow them to get there with the current combat engine system. something/someone is going to lose out slightly otherwise this change wouldnt be bought in, to instigate a change is in effect combating something that is already present in the game and is a danger to it, there fore that person/afiliation loses out.
the inertial dampener should be relevant, if the dodge of a ship increases by 1 point due to the inertial dampener which under the current rulesis equalled only by a ship that doesnt have it having an extra "for instance" 4 combat engines,then this should be equated to the new ruling.
IE if it would take 20 combat engines under the new system to get the same effect, 1 of two things should happen, the inertail dampener be reduced in effect to bring it into line with the original inertail/combat ratio, or it increases in physical size to bring into line with the inertail/combat ratio.
surely as you said above it would increase the ingame value of the inertial dampener if this rule was bought in so something would have to change otherwise a massive boost has been given to this item without the owner actually doing anything
Phil
I.e. if its actually on a list to be implemented or not Cheers
Phil