When you read it please remember that I don't want to propose that we hivers get advantages. I want to create a difference!!!
These changes would make the Hive species truly unique when compared to
other races. And it will give a greater joy out of role-playing the race
since they will now truly function differently.
What do you say?
---------
Hive is an insectoid race, and as such it differ very much from the
other more human like races in the peripheries. Let me mention some of
them:
* Each hive has a queen that lay eggs instead of other races were a
larger part of the population may reproduce themselves.
* All hive lifeforms live in the hives (starbases). There exist no hive
citizens (we have our eggs) and due to that we can not have planetary
populations.
* Workers and warriors are hatched from eggs that queens lay. They are
not recruited from a planetary population.
I would like to suggest the following to be introduced in the game to
more correctly represent the Hive species.
* Remove ALL Hive populations from planets. Replace them with other
races (Naplians/Wimbles or other) to keep merch values on planets.
* Introduce 2 new complexes (could function as exchange complexes):
Hatchery: Warrior (xxxx) - Uses 60 hive eggs and produce 10 hive
warriors.
Hatchery: Worker (xxxx) - Uses 40 hive eggs and produce 10 hive workers.
* The new complexes can not be built with normal orders, instead an SA
must be used to convert regular recruitment complexes to hatcheries.
Only COH and HVE may do this in their starbases. Another way of solving
this is making them restricted knowledge and only COH/HVE have that
affiliation knowledge (can't be transferred outside the aff).
* With only COH and HVE being able to recruit new workers it is now
possible to increase their effectiveness to values comparable to old
BSE.
There are a few advantages and disadvantages here for the Hive affiliations. A few of them will be highlighted here:
Lets start with the advantages:
* Instead of decreasing wages I propose to increase their efficiency. This I do to reflect old BSE where Workers produced 5 manhours and all other races only produced 1 manhour. With this I don't mean that their efficiancy should be increased 500% though..
* Hive affiliations will be able to recruit workers and employees on lifeless rocks where they have starbases.
And on the negative side we mainly find:
* Hive affiliations will lose the ability to seed planets as they do now. For some this might sound like a ridicoulus thing to mention but remember that Hive affiliations can produce large amounts of eggs (a medium Hive Hierarchy starbase produce around 140.000 eggs in a year) and may create planets with good merch values in relatively short time compared with other races. In essence this is the same as the above proposed worker ability, just that we get more stellars instead of increased efficiancy.
I may be biased but the disadvantages might actually be bigger than the advantages when taking into account the amount of eggs the Hive Hierarchy have/produce.
However, why limit it to Hive/Insectoids. All races should have individual parameters. Anyone played StarCraft recently? Or Master of Orion 3?
The problem is, where do you stop. Insectoid races will not use Stellars to pay their workers, for example, so there would be something else (favour with the Queen?). They would have their completely own technology based around MU-Organic and their own racial design.
The potential re-write of the rules (or adding up) is endless. Therefore, even though it would clearly add to the game, it is probably way down the priority scale.
. If the COH had been the larger of the two affiliations I'd agree on it, but since I am MUCH smaller .... erm NO 
.I would be willing to change the profile a bit and say that the COH have captured Hive queens that they use for this, If I can still recruit off the planet.
Of course, I dont have 100k eggs per year, maybe in 10 years.
To curb Hive growth in I'd suggest hive not being able to recruit off the planet at all, whereas the COH do both. Maybe a limit on how many egg complexes we (COH) can use to make up for the difference.
I am all for making us different, but it should be well thought out.
I'd admit that your idea would solve all my problems in an instant. There are not that many planets around with hive populations and I gather you have the same problem.
1. It would mean that the hive have exclusive use of hive racial techniques. A number of us have hive techniques and scientists that would prove obsolete, due to this change. Would mica be willing to swap these techniques, principles, blue prints and scientists for something else?
2. An extension of the point above... What would a HiveQueen BP be swpped for?
3. Secondly, these hatcheries could grossely unbalance the game, as it possible to get a large number of hive egg's each turn from a single queen. You would then able to convert most of these egg's in troops, employee's, what ever you fancy. This would give the hive the ability to generate these in much larger numbers than other aff's and unbalance the game.
4. The replacement of all hive populations would mean that any Hive specific trade goods, would have to be sold to the hive. Where other race trade specifics wouldn't have to be solf specific to their affiliation of specificity. This gives the hive a major advantage in setting prices for these items, basically monopolising the demand for these items.
I'm all for making these Aff's uniques, but i feel you can do that quite successfully through Roleplay methods, without the need for major game changing introductions.
Dave
Gord
1) If the Hive are made unique, then the other races should be allowed to also. It'll open the flood-gates with all the aliens wanting some unique alterations (eg. the DEN get better efficiency because they're telepathic etc). This will take too much time away from Mica and David who are trying to complete other tasks, such as the planetary infrastructure!
It will also be unfair on the human affs unless each race is balanced - bonuses cancel the penalties.
2) The COH have a very vallid point about their different recruiting methods. The COH would have to change (altering their profile
) or would have to be treated differently some how - and how do you stop players bluring the line and taking advantage of the different systems involving the same race?Even if this was the best idea in the world, and everyone backed it 100%, I'd like to see the Planetary Infrastructure completed and in place before we go down the road of making more changes.
One is the sheer availability of troops and employees etc. of the various races. If there is any differentiation with the Hive, there should be for ALL races, and even if each race is balanced with bonuses and penalties, those who have access will just use the ones best suited to a specific task...
Another is examples - like FEL Arrakeen - of starbases which have the history of the Hive race (it was ANT, and agreed amicably with suitable payment that the FEL should keep control when Gordon took them on and the ANT became COH)... Should I have access to all the racial tech/knowledge/difference that you propose? I would argue that I should.
Racial differences are just the same as aff differences in many ways - except the human affs lose out because they're meant to sit there with the "average" that all the bonuses and penalties are based on. There is also the downside that the game would hard-code behaviours and tactics along racial lines, which limits player creativity...
Yes, it's a great idea in principle, and if there is a way of bringing in something that gives distinguishing features without destroying game balance then most of us would like to see it. But just consider one of the key advantages you proposed:
| QUOTE |
| Instead of decreasing wages I propose to increase their efficiency |
This gives you a huge advantage! Not just in wages (you need less to do the same amount of work, so they still end up costing less overall), but also in areas like ship design, where greater efficiency means smaller crew requirements, which means more room for weapons. So the same size ship (identical hulls and available technology etc.) crewed by Hive would be able to do more damage!
Even if all the other races get similar variations, the racial type with the most crewfactors per lifeform gets an instant combat bonus as a direct result. This is why when the idea came up at the playtest stage none of us could think of a way to keep the balance without totally changing the principle of underlying balance linked to the stellar....
Dan
Andy
Of course, the ratio of eggs:workers etc could be tweaked to make it the same stellar cost as (recruiting from the planet pop + training costs) via conventional means.
I would think they would still need the Hive worker bp etc to be tooled as well though.
For native hve populations could we not read NPC Hive Colonies with surplus employees or something to account for the planet pops.
I dont think that efficiency should change though, for the reasons that Dan mentioned.
| QUOTE (finalstryke @ Mar 17 2004, 12:41 PM) |
| I dont think that efficiency should change though, for the reasons that Dan mentioned. |
Please read the suggestion again. I do not propose that Hive troops should be better than any other troops. I only talk about Hive workers (employees).
But I sense that the general populace in this forum want all races to remain the same (i.e. no differences) and will not continue to pursue this matter. I was only after something that would allow us to role play our races, as it is now that is not possible.
| QUOTE (kilanuman @ Mar 17 2004, 04:21 PM) | ||
Please read the suggestion again. I do not propose that Hive troops should be better than any other troops. I only talk about Hive workers (employees). But I sense that the general populace in this forum want all races to remain the same (i.e. no differences) and will not continue to pursue this matter. I was only after something that would allow us to role play our races, as it is now that is not possible. |
You do not need in game mechanisms to roleplay your races properly. That is power play not role play.
Take the example of the BHD and the DTR, both are human affiliations, yet both are completely different due to in game aims, and the way the players role play the affiliations.
These aff's do not need anything drastic changed in game to roleplay their aff's differently, why would the HVE?
| QUOTE |
| Even if this was the best idea in the world, and everyone backed it 100%, I'd like to see the Planetary Infrastructure completed and in place before we go down the road of making more changes. |
Yup
Me too
Gord
| QUOTE (DMJ @ Mar 17 2004, 06:17 PM) |
| Take the example of the BHD and the DTR, both are human affiliations, yet both are completely different due to in game aims, and the way the players role play the affiliations. These aff's do not need anything drastic changed in game to roleplay their aff's differently, why would the HVE? |
For several reasons I think your example isn't appropriate here.
First, DTR and CNF are both human races and function the same.
Secondly, of course those affs don't need any drastic changes. The game is programmed to simulate humans.
Thirdly, I do see some problems with me role playing the fact that ALL Hive lifeforms come from queens when everybody can RECRUIT them on several planets (yes, I am aware of several). This is all ok if Hive function the same as humans. Of course, I can role play them differently but you guys would just laugh at me since you all know I just live in a fantasy and that it is easy to get hold of Hive troops and workers as they rush to your recruitment offices.
Fourth, Hive citizens are EGGS. I do really wonder how they generate wealth for starbases on planets with a Hive population. Have you ever tried to sell things to an egg...
If you think of the roleplay angle. Apart from the RP players engage in with each other, there is also the question of GM moderated roleplay. As the HVE aff you have a huge scope for performing SA's regarding hive stuff. If I was to perform similar SA's I would probably not get very far.
I can't speak much for people recruiting Hive from planets. I have no idea how this works. MAybe this does make no sense to your profile. But the suggestions made would unbalance the game, for the reasons I stated way above in this thread.
Don't get me wrong I'm not against the races being unique. I just don't know how it could be achived without upsetting the game balance...
| QUOTE |
| Thirdly, I do see some problems with me role playing the fact that ALL Hive lifeforms come from queens when everybody can RECRUIT them on several planets (yes, I am aware of several). This is all ok if Hive function the same as humans. Of course, I can role play them differently but you guys would just laugh at me since you all know I just live in a fantasy and that it is easy to get hold of Hive troops and workers as they rush to your recruitment offices. |
Then you should probably also be aware that there are queens to be found on those planets and that the Hive I have "found" have all turned out to be employees or mercs.
Hive citizens are eggs because you (Hive) had mica change them to be that, or am I wrong there. They could just as well have been hive civilians.
Don't get me wrong here, I like your idea but I think it will unbalance the game.
Geoff
| QUOTE (gordon @ Mar 20 2004, 02:22 AM) |
| Hive citizens are eggs because you (Hive) had mica change them to be that, or am I wrong there. They could just as well have been hive civilians. |
Sorry, but that is not the case. In old BSE Hive eggs was a very special lifeform that differed quite much from your regular colonists. Just as Workers and Warriors differed very much from the respective alien troops and colonials.
In BSE the Hive functioned very differently from all other more normal affiliations.
| QUOTE (kilanuman @ Mar 20 2004, 01:49 PM) |
| [In BSE the Hive functioned very differently from all other more normal affiliations. |
In BSE lots of affs functioned differently - especially the "racial" affs
but "in BSE..." doesn't necessarily tally with "In Phoenix..."
Dan
| QUOTE (Dan Reed @ Mar 20 2004, 07:21 PM) |
| but "in BSE..." doesn't necessarily tally with "In Phoenix..." |
Thanks for reminding me Dan.
| QUOTE (kilanuman @ Mar 18 2004, 07:05 PM) |
| [These aff's do not need anything drastic changed in game to roleplay their aff's differently, why would the HVE? [/QUOTE] For several reasons I think your example isn't appropriate here. First, DTR and CNF are both human races and function the same. Secondly, of course those affs don't need any drastic changes. The game is programmed to simulate humans. Thirdly, I do see some problems with me role playing the fact that ALL Hive lifeforms come from queens when everybody can RECRUIT them on several planets |
I have to disagree with you here. There is an example within the human affiliations that shows a distinct difference to the rest of the other human affiliations. In fact that affiliation is similar to your own :
The BHD hierarchy are all Queens.
There you go you see - proof in itself
Andy
- running like hell from Brett yielding a baseball bat 
We sort of have this in the game already with the Kastorian Crew ability to crew a vessle of any racial design with no loss of factors. This is nothing to do with the KAS or KST, but a racial trait.
If Kastorians can have special stuff then why not the Hive (the species, not the aff).
| QUOTE (finalstryke @ Mar 22 2004, 09:54 PM) |
| The Hive species could be tweaked to make it different from the other species, but this change would not be limited to a certain aff, HVE, COH or otherwise (although maybe a piece of tech might be required to take advantage of the uniqueness). We sort of have this in the game already with the Kastorian Crew ability to crew a vessle of any racial design with no loss of factors. This is nothing to do with the KAS or KST, but a racial trait. If Kastorians can have special stuff then why not the Hive (the species, not the aff). |
Im not sure this is the case. I had KAS crew on HVE designed ships and they operated at half effect (like any non-HVE crew would).
Mark
| QUOTE (Mandible @ Mar 23 2004, 09:12 AM) |
| Im not sure this is the case. I had KAS crew on HVE designed ships and they operated at half effect (like any non-HVE crew would). Mark |
If you had human crew on a Hive ship they would operate at 25% efficiency. Kastorian crew have the advantage of 50% efficency.
Cheers
Jons - SMS