This would hold a database of all the trade items, along with their base value and source periphery. The idea is that then you could have this list, select a whole selection of items, and say "buy up to 3000 MU's of each of these items, at 70% of local value". This would then generate all the necessary buy orders.
Obviously this would require more data than this (a set up for each starbase, to put in details of its location and local population, etc). The basic idea though is that markets could be made much easier to handle through a front end like this, rather than requiring updates to the program itself. This would also leave the option of having some items at more or less than the basic value, rather than having to have _all_ items at a set proportion of local value.
Any budding programmers out there willing to give this a try?
Richard
AFT
Nice Idea
Gord
| QUOTE (MasterTrader @ Mar 25 2004, 10:13 PM) |
| A lot of the problems discussed recently arise from the fact that maintaining a large market for trade items is very unwieldy, due to the sheer number of luxury items. Following discussion with Phil (Sara), we thought that one way to sort this would be an additional aspect to the order editor (or even a separate editor, but preferably linking in to the same database) - a trade editor. This would hold a database of all the trade items, along with their base value and source periphery. The idea is that then you could have this list, select a whole selection of items, and say "buy up to 3000 MU's of each of these items, at 70% of local value". This would then generate all the necessary buy orders. Obviously this would require more data than this (a set up for each starbase, to put in details of its location and local population, etc). The basic idea though is that markets could be made much easier to handle through a front end like this, rather than requiring updates to the program itself. This would also leave the option of having some items at more or less than the basic value, rather than having to have _all_ items at a set proportion of local value. Any budding programmers out there willing to give this a try? Richard AFT |
I don't mind writing it...
But the bad news is, I only got an compiler thats runs on the Linux operating system...
Sjaak
| QUOTE (MasterTrader @ Mar 25 2004, 11:13 PM) |
| This would hold a database of all the trade items, along with their base value and source periphery. The idea is that then you could have this list, select a whole selection of items, and say "buy up to 3000 MU's of each of these items, at 70% of local value". This would then generate all the necessary buy orders. |
If this can be written could I suggest you have the option to include/exclude Perishable goods be considered? Or perhaps the option to set different quantities your willing to buy between Perishable/Non-Perishable goods?
For planets with smaller markets receiving several loads of different Perishable goods could lead to excessive wastage
| QUOTE (Duckworth-Lewis @ Mar 26 2004, 12:17 PM) | ||
If this can be written could I suggest you have the option to include/exclude Perishable goods be considered? Or perhaps the option to set different quantities your willing to buy between Perishable/Non-Perishable goods? For planets with smaller markets receiving several loads of different Perishable goods could lead to excessive wastage |
I think the generall idea is that the base-owner decides which items he want to run.
So, you select the ones you need and the computer generates buying orders.
No, more manually entering those commands.. Just import the date from your starbase and go with it.
I think that the same kind of software could be made for the mining cases. This way YOU make the decissions based on accurate information.
Just look as yourself as the general manager who is working with reports generated by your staff. An base govenor is not going to do some filing work, for those jobs he got his staff.
| QUOTE (Duckworth-Lewis @ Mar 26 2004, 12:17 PM) |
| If this can be written could I suggest you have the option to include/exclude Perishable goods be considered? Or perhaps the option to set different quantities your willing to buy between Perishable/Non-Perishable goods? |
To clarify on what Sjaak said...
The idea is that you have a list of all trade items in the editor (or at least, all the ones that you've encountered), complete with details on their base values and source. You can then select a number of items from the list, and say "buy those items I've just selected at up to 3000 MU's of each at 70% of local value". You can then go through and select another range of items (say, the perishable ones), and say "buy those items at up to 1000 MU's of each at 64% of local value". And so on.
Such an editor, being purely a front end, would have to work within the limitations of needing to put in a separate Buy order for each item. But once set up with the details of the items and of your starbase(s), it will be able to generate a whole load of orders in one easy step.
That's the theory, anyway
Richard
AFT
| QUOTE |
The idea is that you have a list of all trade items in the editor (or at least, all the ones that you've encountered), complete with details on their base values and source. You can then select a number of items from the list, and say "buy those items I've just selected at up to 3000 MU's of each at 70% of local value". You can then go through and select another range of items (say, the perishable ones), and say "buy those items at up to 1000 MU's of each at 64% of local value". And so on. |
I am a bit surprised that nobody has being bothered to write suck a thing.
I can see lots of people complain about the level of manual labour, but most could be prevented by some piece of software.
Sadly my knowledge of writing software is a bit dusty (to say the least) and I have switched from Operating system also... So, it will take some time to get something
on the market. (No, I won't plan to charge for it) For those who are running Windows, well somebody else has to write that frontend because I flatly refuse to do it.
I am willing to give it an shot. But it will take some time. I do think that it shoudl be able to import directly from the turns so, that any changes made my Mica would be seen right away..
| QUOTE (Sjaak @ Mar 26 2004, 03:06 PM) | ||
I am a bit surprised that nobody has being bothered to write suck a thing. I can see lots of people complain about the level of manual labour, but most could be prevented by some piece of software. Sadly my knowledge of writing software is a bit dusty (to say the least) and I have switched from Operating system also... So, it will take some time to get something on the market. (No, I won't plan to charge for it) For those who are running Windows, well somebody else has to write that frontend because I flatly refuse to do it. I am willing to give it an shot. But it will take some time. I do think that it shoudl be able to import directly from the turns so, that any changes made my Mica would be seen right away.. |
As most of us use windows, I would predict roughly 99% it might a wise idea to get someone who is willing to write for this format, involved now rather than later.
In truth, we would prefer it from the other side. This being being that players put items on the sell market as they always know what the value is with respect to the planet they are on. This means that there is not a demand for hundreds of thousands of mu's even though the item is only being produced at a rate of 50mu week!
It is then up to traders to purchase these and negotiate places to sell them in distant locations. This is one of the supporting reasons for outpost markets.
(Just an idea - not a particularly good one) Maybe we should restrict market buys to items they have. Thus in order to generate competitive markets, producers would have to give out freebies and develop a market, just like in the real world. Alternatively they would stash the items and only sell them in their own starbases.
| QUOTE (DMJ @ Mar 26 2004, 02:10 PM) | ||
|
Not really.
Its just a matter of splitting up the 'calculations part' and the interface part to different pieces of the code. I am thinking about using just plain C. Its quite an efficient programming language.
Its a bit of an extra hassle, but it will prevent having to rewrite it with every new version of windows, or to make a new one as soon as Microsoft goes bankrupt. :-)
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Mar 26 2004, 02:12 PM) |
| I have found that players have simply run TM lists for the item number range that generally covers trade goods. This has given them a list of common trade goods and their worth. From this they have immediately added these items to their market list. The point here is that even though the item is common, it does not mean that the item is actually being exploited! Rainbow Sword is just the first example I came across - 22,000mu's demanded, 0mu's in existence. In truth, we would prefer it from the other side. This being being that players put items on the sell market as they always know what the value is with respect to the planet they are on. This means that there is not a demand for hundreds of thousands of mu's even though the item is only being produced at a rate of 50mu week! It is then up to traders to purchase these and negotiate places to sell them in distant locations. This is one of the supporting reasons for outpost markets. (Just an idea) Maybe we should restrict market buys to items they have. Thus in order to generate competitive markets, producers would have to give out freebies and develop a market, just like in the real world. Alternatively they would stash the items and only sell them in their own starbases. |
I can see your point Mica.
Another problem is that its looks like that too many people just keep their uniques to their own empires.. So, it will probably get never on the open market.
What I suggest, is to make it harder to keep it to yourself, or that it is more profitable to put it on the open market.
One idea, is to make price dependant on the starbase its being sold.
So, goods from DTR from Venice thats get shipped to an starbase of the DTR in Solo will not change that much in modifier.
On the other hand goods that go to Solo, but to an FCN or IMP starbase will make more margin. You might also want to introduce the hostility of the two fractions as an sort of bonus. So, goods from IMP to CFN territory will get more worth.. Not much, but just a little twist with the trader can use to convince his buyer to buy it.
Also, you might want to introduce some "marketing" complexes. That means that first you need to devellop an market for the new goods, you get awfully high prices in the start (look at how expensive any new product is in the start). That will get down after some time and later on you will use marketing again to revive the market.
You might even want to hire an trader to do some part of that for you... It could be an ship-item, like an carnaval. :-)
Well, it looks like that I got exicted again :-)
Prices should be regulated the same they are in planetary. If you sell huge amounts of a single product, prices drop, if you store what you buy and sell only in small quantities then the prices are kept high...the supply and demand concept thingy
| QUOTE (Avatar @ Mar 26 2004, 02:56 PM) |
| I like that last idea, of having prices rise if the sides are at war!! It would certainly bring up the blockade runner concept. Prices should be regulated the same they are in planetary. If you sell huge amounts of a single product, prices drop, if you store what you buy and sell only in small quantities then the prices are kept high...the supply and demand concept thingy |
Well, *I* was thinking about something differently.
You pay that nice FCN guy (me ofcourse) extra for shipping from between two warzones...
I mean, the SHIPPER got the risk so, he should get some of the bonus.
| QUOTE (Avatar @ Mar 26 2004, 02:56 PM) |
| I like that last idea, of having prices rise if the sides are at war!! It would certainly bring up the blockade runner concept. Prices should be regulated the same they are in planetary. If you sell huge amounts of a single product, prices drop, if you store what you buy and sell only in small quantities then the prices are kept high...the supply and demand concept thingy |
Exactly - dynamic pricing dependent upon supply and demand. Which is what I have been arguing for all along. And, given that people have complained that keeping track of dynamic pricing is difficult with the sheer number of trade goods currently around (a complaint that I entirely understand), hence why I suggest that a "trade editor" is needed.
And a trade editor is something that a player could reasonably write, without us constantly complaining to Mica and David and adding even _more_ things to their "to do" list.
Richard
AFT
I was thinking that explorers always have a back-up ship with enough modules and employees to build an outpost and man it. Then as soon as they find a unique resource - bam, down goes a single resource complex outpost, in comes a standing order to add the amount of resource exploited to the market at 5X local value, then on to the next world/sector. Let somebody else worry about shipping etc, you just get the stellars from sales (till somebody captures it, but hey, who cares, you just complain to the local authorities providing you pay your taxes).
This really does promote the small trader with his 400mu cargo capacity.
Richard
AFT
| QUOTE |
| What I suggest, is to make it harder to keep it to yourself, or that it is more profitable to put it on the open market. |
For example identifying the systems where large volumes of unique goods are being cycled (one way or both) and reduce the multiplier? That mechanism will work for intra-aff regular runs as well
If Mica targets these then you would have to be a large aff with plenty of systems in different peripheries to avoid getting a multiplier reduction at some stage....oops, wrong thread
Dan
| QUOTE (Avatar @ Mar 26 2004, 03:56 PM) |
| I like that last idea, of having prices rise if the sides are at war!! It would certainly bring up the blockade runner concept. Prices should be regulated the same they are in planetary. If you sell huge amounts of a single product, prices drop, if you store what you buy and sell only in small quantities then the prices are kept high...the supply and demand concept thingy |
I think adjusting values going on Affiliation relations is a bit of a dangerous road
For example I can't imagine that the current situation would mean there is a particular demand on a Confederate world for Brooker Steaks - as there are plenty of 'unique' goods of a similar ilk - indeed to some extent the reverse may be true and a person living in the Confederacy buying them could be viewed as not particularly patriotic and indeed loyalty to the flag could actually push the demand for a Darkfold equivalent up...
This is probably not such a problem with higher value goods, after all if a person wants the best they will pay for the best but for unique goods for which there are x number of variants it doesn't sit well with me
A are at war with B
A will not be shipping their goods to B, and B will not be going to A to purchase A's goods and vice versa. This results in reduced supply of those items.
B gets lots of trade goods from C. So much in fact that B's market is overlaoded with them, prices drop. B's market is not overloaded with A's goods, so these can be sold to the local populace for more than C's goods (increased demand).
Perhaps this effect isnt very large now, and perhaps it will be larger in future, but I'm not sure if additional 'artificial' measures need to be introduced where player actions already produce trends.
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Mar 26 2004, 03:26 PM) |
| I think that there are many players that do not know that they can run unlimited outposts for free if they have upgraded their political to £4 per week. I was thinking that explorers always have a back-up ship with enough modules and employees to build an outpost and man it. Then as soon as they find a unique resource - bam, down goes a single resource complex outpost, in comes a standing order to add the amount of resource exploited to the market at 5X local value, then on to the next world/sector. Let somebody else worry about shipping etc, you just get the stellars from sales (till somebody captures it, but hey, who cares, you just complain to the local authorities providing you pay your taxes). This really does promote the small trader with his 400mu cargo capacity. |
Maybe we need more local resources?
This outpost pattern is more typical of metal yields where we need to be on a specific location...
with uniques then even local resources can be tapped up by a starbase located anywhere on the planet.
Because of this, might as well build one big outpost and defend it and soak up as many uniques as you can find, at which pont the economy of scale for shipping makes it more worth building up 4K Mus of stock and shipping yourself.
Maybe (and Im just thinking aloud here), if there were more unique resources that needed an outpost to be located right on top of them, but were still profitable to exploit) then the logistics of trying to controll everything would be too much of a nightmare and youd just leave the shipping to others?
hmm... but then maybe the players with all the outposts could just assign shipping routes to new players to take care of and it will still be left in-aff?
*shrugs.. is a toughy
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Mar 27 2004, 01:12 AM) |
| The point here is that even though the item is common, it does not mean that the item is actually being exploited! Rainbow Sword is just the first example I came across - 22,000mu's demanded, 0mu's in existence. <<SNIP>> (Just an idea - not a particularly good one) Maybe we should restrict market buys to items they have. Thus in order to generate competitive markets, producers would have to give out freebies and develop a market, just like in the real world. Alternatively they would stash the items and only sell them in their own starbases. |
Part1: For your example here, I am in a position to expolit the Rainbow Swords, but at present I don't have enough dang complexes (never EVER enough complexes....
). I also have the things on my markets to buy... the reason being that when I begin exploiting them (soon I hope!) I will sell them on the open market. If people sell them to my other starbases, then I don't have to transport them (and it promotes trade and earns everyone a few $$). If they sell to others, then I've still made the initial sale. That's the theory. When I get the complexes running. 
Part2: I can see where you're going with this idea, but I don't like it as sugguested here. Prehaps a better way to do it is to make ALL trade goods limited knowledge (would have to sort something out for the political report though!) and then you can select who to give the knowledge too, drop off samples etc.
The biggest problem with only being able to buy items you already have is the Perishable ones... your sample would grow fur and walk off very quickly, leaving you unable to buy anymore - obviously a bit silly
| QUOTE (finalstryke @ Mar 26 2004, 06:01 PM) |
| Maybe (and Im just thinking aloud here), if there were more unique resources that needed an outpost to be located right on top of them, but were still profitable to exploit) then the logistics of trying to controll everything would be too much of a nightmare and youd just leave the shipping to others? |
Local resources are definately the way to go I think, especially if outposts can have markets. Obviously they would be on a smaller scale or have smaller stockpiles than global resources. This gives the option of having a small sustainable resource or just ripping all you can from the sector and screwing up the local ecology (which if its an enemy planet - who cares?
)Exploiting the forests of a particular sector should only affect that sector. If local resources are scattered all over a planet then its worth continuing to explore once youve looked at one of each type of terrain. Also many special complex resources are mineral in nature - why should they be any different from a mineral deposit (i.e. local not global)?
One final thing that needs to be looked at - too many resources cost more to exploit than you can sell them for. If something has a low base value then it needs to have a decent yield to make it viable. This needs to be taken into consideration.
| QUOTE (Sjaak @ Mar 26 2004, 03:17 PM) | ||||
I think the generall idea is that the base-owner decides which items he want to run. So, you select the ones you need and the computer generates buying orders. No, more manually entering those commands.. Just import the date from your starbase and go with it. I think that the same kind of software could be made for the mining cases. This way YOU make the decissions based on accurate information. Just look as yourself as the general manager who is working with reports generated by your staff. An base govenor is not going to do some filing work, for those jobs he got his staff. |
Hi
Now off topic but I've just built a tool that does this.
Its an add on to the turn parser that at the moment feeds a Data Archive.
It uses the latest information on Items being sold (from the KJC web site) and the latest TM data for a system (last one run) to give you a screen showing what items the system knows of can be sold to populations in the system you choose. You get shown if those items are on sale on the open market and if so the min and max prices they are sold at.
You then get to set a mark up (or down) on the price you can sell then at and how many you want to buy.
Check which items you want (under type groupings).
Hit go and the code to be pasted into your turn comes out.
Its been through some trail runs and works a treat so far.
If you would like to use it feel free to contact the DOM PD and ask to join our Affiliation then access is yours :-P
But as a proof of concept the idea works...
cheers
Pete
| QUOTE (nortonweb @ Mar 31 2004, 04:16 AM) |
If you would like to use it feel free to contact the DOM PD and ask to join our Affiliation then access is yours :-P But as a proof of concept the idea works... |
Now I know why there aren't much tools around.. If this is the general attitude though... I don't hope so... because it means lots of double efforts. But no problem..
because you also get access to a trade calculator (includes details on items that are drugs or unique), searchable TM archive, searchable planet and GPI data, SA archive and much more all for joining DOM...but thats all off topic
Pete
The option I would like to see is not being able to get a tech manual on a unique item unless you know of it or it is on a market (being sold). Why the hell should I know of some strange item from a world I have never visited, an item I have never seen or for that matter anybody else has ever seen!!!! Stop the bulk tech manual orders which allow people to find out about items they IC know nothing about.
Gareth SMS Vice-PD
| QUOTE (StellarMining @ Apr 19 2004, 01:15 PM) |
| The option I would like to see is not being able to get a tech manual on a unique item unless you know of it or it is on a market (being sold). Why the hell should I know of some strange item from a world I have never visited, an item I have never seen or for that matter anybody else has ever seen!!!! Stop the bulk tech manual orders which allow people to find out about items they IC know nothing about. Gareth SMS Vice-PD |
But surely - with trade goods in particular - you may actually want people to know about the good in order to generate a buying market?
Just because goods are being brought, but not sold on the market, doesn't mean it isn't being traded in
| QUOTE |
| The option I would like to see is not being able to get a tech manual on a unique item unless you know of it or it is on a market (being sold). Why the hell should I know of some strange item from a world I have never visited, an item I have never seen or for that matter anybody else has ever seen!!!! Stop the bulk tech manual orders which allow people to find out about items they IC know nothing about. |
This is already in the game. There are different types of trade goods. Common ones are assumed to be well known or publically advertised (and thus anyone can access public archives for their spec). Anyone can get a TM for these - youve heard about them and you contact your trade advisers to get the details.
There are also trade goods that are not common knowledge. They maybe come from restricted systems or have come into being through creative SA's or research.