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Regarding the changes announced today in the sss, I still have a couple of questions:

1-How to determine the actual nš of hulls that can be assembled per week? The sqrt of 100 is easy enough, but the 150 and 200 don't give such clean numbers. Is it round/roundup the nš of hulls (the case of the 200 2xsqrt(200)=28.28)? And what about the time required (200/28.28xxx=7.07xxx; is it 7 or the roundup of the formula)?

2-Do ships still just require the hulls and armour o begin the construction? And do they need all hulls and armour at day 1, or just the fraction corresponding to the amount of hulls that can be assembled?
Sjaak
I myself have another question.
In the email is stated that an 10% ship has got an 3% chance of an cascade breakdown.

the following formule was used ((100.0-m_integrity)3)/25000 %
Okay. Lets fill in 10. That will mean 90*90*90 / 25.000 = 729000 / 25.000 =29.16% not the 3%
MasterTrader
That 29% is the chance of a single additional integrity loss (i.e. losing two lots of integrity modifier that week, rather than one). The 3% that David is talking about is a cascade breakdown, i.e. the chance continuing to suffer additional integrity losses so far that the ship reaches zero integrity and falls apart.

Richard
AFT

PS. I haven't checked the numbers at all
Sjaak
QUOTE (MasterTrader @ Jun 1 2004, 05:59 PM)
That 29% is the chance of a single additional integrity loss (i.e. losing two lots of integrity modifier that week, rather than one). The 3% that David is talking about is a cascade breakdown, i.e. the chance continuing to suffer additional integrity losses so far that the ship reaches zero integrity and falls apart.

Richard
AFT

PS. I haven't checked the numbers at all

With an XLight ship this will mean another 4 points. So, it means that the ship is back to 6%.
I am not sure if an ship with this kind of integrity can survive long enough to reach an friendly starbase.

Maybe its time to re-valuate the 'sometimes' integrity loss?? 4% is already quite a lot and if an single manouvre can cost some 8% you have an serious problem.
MasterTrader
... or maybe you just ought to conduct maintenance well before your ship gets as low as 10% integrity?

Richard
AFT
David Bethel
QUOTE
1-How to determine the actual nš of hulls that can be assembled per week

Hulls per week = Round to Nearest Integer (2 * Square root (Hulls))

So for 200 hulls its 28 hulls per week

QUOTE
2-Do ships still just require the hulls and armour o begin the construction? And do they need all hulls and armour at day 1, or just the fraction corresponding to the amount of hulls that can be assembled?


You need all the hulls and armour availiable at the point the ship construction is started but the items can get fitted at the end. (Same as it was)

David Bethel
QUOTE
That 29% is the chance of a single additional integrity loss (i.e. losing two lots of integrity modifier that week, rather than one). The 3% that David is talking about is a cascade breakdown, i.e. the chance continuing to suffer additional integrity losses so far that the ship reaches zero integrity and falls apart.


Yes thats it. The low integrity warning goes off at 20 so you should have time to sort yourself out. It has to be stated from day one that XL ships are supposed to be eggshells and they fall apart so you have to be carefull with them.

The nonlinear loses were set how they are with the XL in mind, and thats why they are so minimal....
Sjaak
QUOTE (MasterTrader @ Jun 1 2004, 06:34 PM)
... or maybe you just ought to conduct maintenance well before your ship gets as low as 10% integrity?

Richard
AFT

I might go for the famous integrity stabilisator then.. just to get things easier under control, because with my luck, I will hit three of those 4% drops with my 96% ship...

So anyone wants to offer an bp for me???
Nik
From SSS:
-There will be a production limit on the type of hulled ships assembled per week.

hull production limit = 2 * sqrt(hulls);

However the yard will be able to work on multiple ships.


Can someone explain the formula to me please. So if I had 1 million hulls sitting about I can use 2000 hulls in production???

Nik
Dan Reed
QUOTE (Nik @ Jun 1 2004, 07:05 PM)
From SSS:
-There will be a production limit on the type of hulled ships assembled per week.

hull production limit = 2 * sqrt(hulls);

However the yard will be able to work on multiple ships.


Can someone explain the formula to me please. So if I had 1 million hulls sitting about I can use 2000 hulls in production???

Nik

it could have been worded slightly more clearly, but I believe it means the following:

for the building of a specific ship of X hulls, you can add (at most) twice the square root of it's hull size (rounded to the nearest integer) per week - even with 1 million hulls sitting in your starbase

BUT as long as you have enough of everything else (shipyards, ship bp's etc), you could use all of the million on a (large) number of ships

Dan
Duckworth-Lewis
errmmm, perhaps its just the way I'm calcing things but to me that calculation encourages larger ship production.

It means a 50 hull ship will take just 1 week less to build than a 100 hull ship.....is this the desired effect? In some ways I thought the changes would encourage some smaller designs - and perhaps they will in the sense of the economic cost - but it seems the timescale of production is stacked up against them.



Dan Reed
The economic considerations are plenty! Sabretooths now cost upwards of 77,000 production (dependant on variant) - over 1500 factory-weeks - and will take a minimum of seven weeks to build under the new rules. You're not going to see too many new Sabretooths for quite some time.

Dan
David Bethel
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and will take a minimum of seven weeks to build under the new rules. You're not going to see too many new Sabretooths for quite some time.


The effect is to place a gap between lossing a ship and replacing it if yo uhave the hulls. The idea is to avoid ppl stockpiling hulls to avoid the maintenance costs and then just building replacements the week after.
David Bethel
QUOTE
it could have been worded slightly more clearly, but I believe it means the following


Its about as clear as a muddy pool when you read it.

You can have as many ships in production as you like, but the number of hulls added to any single ships per week is

hull production limit = 2 * sqrt(hulls);

So if you have 1000 Hulls you can build 10x100Hull ships in 5 weeks.
Nik
QUOTE (David Bethel @ Jun 2 2004, 01:32 PM)
QUOTE
it could have been worded slightly more clearly, but I believe it means the following


Its about as clear as a muddy pool when you read it.

You can have as many ships in production as you like, but the number of hulls added to any single ships per week is

hull production limit = 2 * sqrt(hulls);

So if you have 1000 Hulls you can build 10x100Hull ships in 5 weeks.

OK; I'm really lost now with this and the previous mail. You state that the idea is to prevent people stockpiling hulls to save on maintenance, but how you've just described the formula this looks exactly like what you don't want to achieve. The more hulls stockpiled the quicker you build to a certain limit (this being shipyards based). Or have I totally lost it??

Nik
Avatar
Nik, it's to prevent people to build a replacement fleet overnight. Previously, if you had the hulls and the shipyards, you could rebuild x ships per week. Now even if you have all that had presuming you're building 100 heavy hulled ones, you'll take 5 weeks to build the same x ships.

Apparently some AFFs would stockpile unbuilt ships and build them overnight to replace losses. Now can do the same, but will need 5 weeks to do so...alot can happen in a month.
Duckworth-Lewis
just to clarify...do the number of shipyards still have a limiting effect?

ie; if you have 1000 hulls in place but only 10 shipyards are you still limited to building 40 hulls at a time (allowing 2 100 heavy hull ships to be built over a 5 week period) rather than being able to build 10 (the limit imposed by the number of hulls available)

Otherwise we may as well just scrap all but 1 shipyard complex....
Dan Reed
QUOTE (Nik @ Jun 2 2004, 02:00 PM)
QUOTE

So if you have 1000 Hulls you can build 10x100Hull ships in 5 weeks.

OK; I'm really lost now with this and the previous mail. You state that the idea is to prevent people stockpiling hulls to save on maintenance, but how you've just described the formula this looks exactly like what you don't want to achieve. The more hulls stockpiled the quicker you build to a certain limit (this being shipyards based). Or have I totally lost it??

Nik

You need to differentiate between hulls as in "hulls in stock in your shipyard" and hulls as in "number of hulls you need to fit together to build a specific ship design"

no matter how many hulls you have in stock in the starbase, you remove (from stock) the right number at the start of the build process for a specific ship. Each week your shipyards then bolt together a maximum of twice the square root of the size of the ship (expressed in hulls) rounded to the nearest integer until the ship is complete.

But you can have as many ships "in work" at the same time as you like, so long as you have all the requirements for each ship (hulls and armour plates in stock to start, shipyard capacity and blueprints each week, and so on)

Dan
Dan Reed
QUOTE (Duckworth-Lewis @ Jun 2 2004, 03:43 PM)
just to clarify...do the number of shipyards still have a limiting effect?

ie; if you have 1000 hulls in place but only 10 shipyards are you still limited to building 40 hulls at a time (allowing 2 100 heavy hull ships to be built over a 5 week period) rather than being able to build 10 (the limit imposed by the number of hulls available)

Otherwise we may as well just scrap all but 1 shipyard complex....

yes - but the capacity is now based on "hull production" of 400 per shipyard

SO you need 1 shipyard per heavy hull per week for example

Dan
Mica Goldstone
Nik, you are sort of correct - you can have a zillion hulls in your starbase stockpile.
This will enable you to replace your fleet should you be reckless enough to squander it.
The more shipyards you have, the more ships you can build at the same time.
So should you want to replace a hundred ships in a month, you need a hell of a lot of shipyards.

You also have to build these shipyards and have them standing idle if your affiliation has reached its effective fleet limit based on patch production cost to maintain the fleet. The shipyards still require employees and wages even if they are closed and more when they are opened.

So, it does mean that replacing a fleet in a relatively short time is possible, but it is still not beneficial to keep churning out ships ad nauseam. We never wanted shipbuilding to grind to a halt, just to ensure that pushing one aspect of the game to the extreme became overly expensive to the point of insanity.

So it is efficient to have a small number of shipyards continually running, replacing the occasional ship that is destroyed through natural means (accidents and pirates etc). Naval affiliations will however be more geared towards larger shipyards for rapid deployment of replacement ships. How much effort they put into this is their choice.
David Bethel
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yes - but the capacity is now based on "hull production" of 400 per shipyard


No that bit i tleft as it was, for its 4 hulls per ship yard still.
Mandible
QUOTE (David Bethel @ Jun 3 2004, 06:35 PM)
QUOTE
yes - but the capacity is now based on "hull production" of 400 per shipyard


No that bit i tleft as it was, for its 4 hulls per ship yard still.

Is it to be permanently left at 4 hulls per ship, or will you be changing it at some point to the 400 output?

Mark
David Bethel
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No that bit i tleft as it was, for its 4 hulls per ship yard still.


Thats staying, i saw no reason to fiddle with it. And the code to effect ratio was very high.