Mark
I think there are special rules for freighters set to dump their cargo and flee - they have a vastly improved combat speed in round 1 for the purpose of fleeing.
| QUOTE (Frabby @ Aug 26 2004, 02:12 PM) |
| In order to pin another ship, you have to have a better combat speed and at least one functional weapon system/tractor beam. Even a space fighter will do. I think there are special rules for freighters set to dump their cargo and flee - they have a vastly improved combat speed in round 1 for the purpose of fleeing. |
So a tiny ship designed to be incredibly fast, with a single pulse beam could pin a large, slow war ship? Makes me think of a fly stopping a giant!
I think this should be looked at with the new combat changes - since a ship will now only target vessel it can hit, the same should be applied here - a vessel is only pinned if it can be successfully hit (so the fast ship would need a LOT of targetting comps to counter act the accuracy/speed penalty). I would even suggest that to be pinned a ship has to have an ability to inflict a minimum amount of damage to the target - if the attacking ship cant really hurt you (your scints, or shields could absorb the damage, etc) then why would it pin you?
A good few months back the 'can leave combat' flag was added to the game. This was after a number of occasions where a ships managed to flee combat but not left the location, or had destroyed/boarded the ships they engaged were caught by a fleet moving in without giving them the opportunity to leave (random turn run for the day). Obviously these are still bound by TU limits.
Vessel A boards and captures vessel B. The following day, Vessel B comes under assault by vessels X, Y and Z.
Assuming that Vessel A's combat speed is faster than X, Y and Z, does this mean that Vessel B can also escape combat? Or, as Vessel B is slower than the attacking fleet, will it be assaulted and draw Vessel A back into the combat too (defend lists permitting)?
The crux of the situation is playability. Obviously it would be excellent if you could respond to a boarding action on the next day and capture the enemy. However if this was the case then it would be pointless ever attempting a boarding action as you would have absolutely no chance of getting away with it.
As a compromise we created a system that holds a position for combat if it attempts to board and the ship being boarded is defended by any other ship carrying weapons in the same location at the time of boarding.
The boarded ship also only has the TU's it had available (plus 60 for the new day).
Also, if either (the pirate and the newly boarded) of the ships do not attempt to move off the very next day, they loose their 'can leave location' status and are once again subject to the pinning rules of standard engagement.
Therefore a completely defenceless ship (that has sat around long enough to be noticed by a pirate scout) can be successfully boarded and orders can be submitted for it the very next day, and there is nothing that can be done to stop it escaping except possibly intercept its movement after its first action.
If you think that this favours pirates - yes it does, but only because the amount of effort and risk required to find a ship, issue a specific boarding request and actually get away with it is bloody staggering! Essentially there is sod all else going for them.
Side A hits side B destroying side B.
Next day B's allies turn up.
As side A have destroyed B they have their 'can leave location' flag set and can't be pinned - but only for that single day.
If side A does not leave on the next day then they become subject once again to standard pinning rules.
The 'can leave location' flag is in effect a note saying that the ship in question would have had time to 'get the hell out of there' prior to the cavalry turning up. If the ship does not take up the offer on the very next day, it looses its chance.
The 'can leave location' is only set at the end of a day's successful combat/boarding, i.e. one in which the ship was not pinned or held for combat.
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Aug 27 2004, 08:11 AM) |
| The 'can leave location' flag is in effect a note saying that the ship in question would have had time to 'get the hell out of there' prior to the cavalry turning up. If the ship does not take up the offer on the very next day, it looses its chance. |
Would it not be possible / make more sense to the poor player if the "can leave location" flag (wherever that is?) forced ships to be processed first?
If I understand it that's what it is supposed to be simulating anyway (The ship "would have" left except it may not be processed until after the ships arrive that "would have" arrived after it leaving??! urk)
Why not actually do it that way? (unless I'm misunderstanding again) "Can leave location" would then actually mean "will move first".
| QUOTE (Steve-Law @ Aug 27 2004, 07:19 AM) | ||
Would it not be possible / make more sense to the poor player if the "can leave location" flag (wherever that is?) forced ships to be processed first? If I understand it that's what it is supposed to be simulating anyway (The ship "would have" left except it may not be processed until after the ships arrive that "would have" arrived after it leaving??! urk) Why not actually do it that way? (unless I'm misunderstanding again) "Can leave location" would then actually mean "will move first". |
Myself have got some problems with the current setup, giving players who just boarded an free turn to do whatever they want plus an turn to get away.
Trade is at this moment already an very low profit margin thing, look for yourself whats on the market and how much time it will take to make an decent profit doing this. And an big trade ship is an valuabel asset, worth more then most people realize especially now replacing stolen ships is really slowed down by the new playing rules. In the past you would have been able to replace your ship if a matter of days... Just build a new 100 Light at priority on your base. Now, it will take at least five weeks to replace that vessel.
The current setup will give them TWO chances, first the turn in which nobody can attack you, and then the second turn where you have an fair chance. Shouldn't it be more fair, to chance it so that the next maintain is done on the day after the ship was boarded (and taken) so that the ship can run his orders first??
| QUOTE (Steve-Law @ Aug 27 2004, 07:19 AM) | ||
Would it not be possible / make more sense to the poor player if the "can leave location" flag (wherever that is?) forced ships to be processed first? If I understand it that's what it is supposed to be simulating anyway (The ship "would have" left except it may not be processed until after the ships arrive that "would have" arrived after it leaving??! urk) Why not actually do it that way? (unless I'm misunderstanding again) "Can leave location" would then actually mean "will move first". |
i think the system as it is seems to work. If the "can leave" flag was changed to "process first", the ships would have to be, literally, the very first positions processed in the game for that day (at least the first ships, anyway). This would give them a host of other advantages too - the PIR combat ship could move to another sector where it had seen another lone ship and guarantee it would get to try to board it (where now, the random turn processing means it might have already moved).
Mark
| QUOTE (Steve-Law @ Aug 27 2004, 07:19 AM) |
| i think the system as it is seems to work. If the "can leave" flag was changed to "process first", the ships would have to be, literally, the very first positions processed in the game for that day (at least the first ships, anyway). This would give them a host of other advantages too - the PIR combat ship could move to another sector where it had seen another lone ship and guarantee it would get to try to board it (where now, the random turn processing means it might have already moved). |
I don't see any difference with the current settings. If the now pirate ship choose to move off to another location and start an second boarding attempt it could so anyway..
Or it could move the crew to another ship and starts boarding from there.
The current setting doesn't seem to be working. Just give the ship an fair chance of leaving and thats it. And a fair chance is the same chance any other is getting.. Now an extra GM-introduced free turn.
Or on the other hand, we need to have got some equipment in hand to make boarding less profitable. Maybe resetting the number of TU's to zero??
All those DTR ships that were hitting a ship wandering through Venice on the same day as the boarding action could have been processed first to intercept the pirate ship that was also being processed first to escape.
The current system has its interpretational flaws, but it works.
I have just added a couple of paragraphs to the woefully understated combat manuals clarifying the matter.
This does leave one point - currently boarding actions against ships with the flag set are still going through (not thought to prevent these). This is clearly wrong as the boarded ship may have only had a few life supports so there will be only a couple of boarders on board. This makes retaking them prior to the ship being processed easy. We will have to improve the flag to prevent boarding actions on the next day as well.
| QUOTE (Sjaak @ Aug 27 2004, 08:04 AM) |
| The current setting doesn't seem to be working. Just give the ship an fair chance of leaving and thats it. And a fair chance is the same chance any other is getting.. Now an extra GM-introduced free turn. |
If I read this right - you are suggesting that there should not be a 'can leave' flag and if another ship happens to be processed first and pins the ship prior to it being processed, then it is tough on the pirate?
If you are suggesting this - I have only this advice - try being a pirate with all your heart - but make sure you contact me after every successful boarding action and I will remove the - can leave flag. We will see exactly how far you get - I promise you, your comment will be something to the effect of - "It's impossible to be a pirate. After all the buggering about trying to find somebody to board, then only to get minced by half a dozen ships straight afterward...."
Remember that if five ships coming to the rescue there is a 5:1 chance that one of them will be processed before the boarded ship.
If you are however agreeing with us - a fair chance is being allowed to leave unhindered the next day, then my apologies.
Being a pirate is hard work and can be easilly countered by an efficient escort system.
And if traders complain that replacing a light hulled ship takes weeks, imagine the pirate which most likely need at least normal hulls.
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Aug 27 2004, 08:31 AM) |
| If I read this right - you are suggesting that there should not be a 'can leave' flag and if another ship happens to be processed first and pins the ship prior to it being processed, then it is tough on the pirate? If you are suggesting this - I have only this advice - try being a pirate with all your heart - but make sure you contact me after every successful boarding action and I will remove the - can leave flag. We will see exactly how far you get - I promise you, your comment will be something to the effect of - "It's impossible to be a pirate. After all the buggering about trying to find somebody to board, then only to get minced by half a dozen ships straight afterward...." Remember that if five ships coming to the rescue there is a 5:1 chance that one of them will be processed before the boarded ship. If you are however agreeing with us - a fair chance is being allowed to leave unhindered the next day, then my apologies. |
What about doing both??
A fair chance of leaving the place AND a fair chance of retaking the vessel??
At this moment its all in favour of the PIRATE.. as soon as he gets the vessel, the vessel is in practice destroyed.
Don't you think that the crew will do it utmost to get back home?? Or is it just switch sides??
At this moment it got an GUARANTEE that it can leave, which is a bit unrealistic in my opinion.
| QUOTE (Sjaak @ Aug 27 2004, 08:04 AM) |
| I don't see any difference with the current settings. If the now pirate ship choose to move off to another location and start an second boarding attempt it could so anyway.. |
It could move off and try, but it would not be guaranteed the target ship was still there - at the moment turns are processed randomly, so the target could have moved. If the PIR gets a "processed first" flag, then the target ship has no chance of leaving.
The original crew of the newly taken ship are likely to be dead/prisoners. I think the PIR has to use his own crew to move it?
I like the current set up, but what would you suggest is a fairer approach for all? remembering the odds the PIR has to go through to get their action in the first place.
Mark
| QUOTE (Mandible @ Aug 27 2004, 09:36 AM) |
| I like the current set up, but what would you suggest is a fairer approach for all? remembering the odds the PIR has to go through to get their action in the first place. Mark |
Exactly - until you have tried it, under absolutely no circumstance write it off as easy. It is very insulting to those that have and even more so to those that have and failed.
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Aug 27 2004, 10:49 AM) | ||
Exactly - until you have tried it, under absolutely no circumstance write it off as easy. It is very insulting to those that have and even more so to those that have and failed. |
I fully agree with Mica here. I cannot see how being a pirate is anything but a complete nightmare. Apart from finding a ship to board, you also have to scan the ship before the actual boarding action.
Think about trying to find a ship. You cannot wait around for your ship to stop a ship entering the OQ since you will only be notified that evening. So any boarding attempt would take place the same day the cavelry turns up to take out your ship.
So you have to search for a ship which has ended its turn in an OQ, send in orders the next day to board the position and hope that the ship hasn't moved off in the meantime.
Even if you see the ship when you enter the OQ, it doesn't guarantee that you will see it for boarding. Yes, you can issue a number of boarding attempts, but this wastes TUs.
Boarding actions are also increadibly painful for the attacking side. 8:1 odds against makes even 20 normal marines pretty lethal. You then have to get away which can also be blocked by covering other OQs, especially if the boarding action is done inside ring 10. Outside ring 10 means you have to fill up the ship with more sensors to see the target in the first place so less room for troops.
Finally, stopping pirate attcks is very easy if you have a ship defending your transport.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with the rules changing to being more in favour of pirate attacks.
Nik