Kragnost
	3 questions in one but they're all related, sort of.... If experience is a characteristic of an officer, shouldn't it be displayed as part of the tech manual for that "item"? Otherwise, if you have more than one officer on a ship, how can you tell the experience of the one that isn't in charge of the ship (i.e. the experience of the one that isn't shown as part of the ship results). If you do have more than one officer on a ship which "takes command"? The one with the most experience? Ship officer experience affects dodge and accuracy (plus maybe some more things), what does the experience of a starbase/outpost officer do for the starbase/officer??
Jons
	Is there anyway of creating an officer training complex? Maybe installing a high exp officer that you have to train others. I had several warships intercept a pirate and over 17 rounds of combat eventually blew him up but because I had equiped my SOL well and shoot down every single missile/torp, all ships present gained 0% experience because they received no damage. Is being in a battle and getting shoot at not enough, you have to suffer damage to gain exp? If so my warfleet will now consist of light hulls only because they will suffer heavy damage and gain lots of exp (if they survive Cheers Jons - SMS
Mica Goldstone
	QUOTE (Jons @ Jun 25 2003, 04:22 PM) Is being in a battle and getting shoot at not enough, you have to suffer damage to gain exp? No pain, no gain. It has to be this way, unscrupulous players would simply milk the system running pretty firework displays in order to borg their officers.
Avatar
	But it hardly seems fair! I mean a Baseship fires on a tiny PIR ship, the PIR though heavilly damaged manages to make an emergency jump and despite a few close calls with a few space hazards manages to survive and gain Exp. and the winner which didn't even get a scratch gains nothing?? There's got to be another way!! How about Exp by kills?
Steve-Law
	QUOTE (Avatar @ Jun 26 2003, 10:02 AM) How about Exp by kills? That would be unfair to the brave and resourceful PIR captain who survived against such odds.
Jons
	But isn't it more unfair to reward the captains that enter combat ill equiped and with bad defense? If I remove all my sheilds and sheild gens, I can fit more weapons, do more damage and receive more damage and experience. Shouldn't good tactics count for something? Isn't the point of Phalanx/Gatling lasers/Scint's etc to protect the ship rather than allow the captain to sit back and hope that a missile or two get through so that he can learn from the experience of getting thrown on his butt. I would have thought the experience would have taught him to have more defense which will mean it's the last thing he will learn What happens with fleet manuevers and battle drills? Isn't this what would help to increase a captains knowledge and experience? Currently the only way is to risk getting blown up. Cheers Jons - SMS
Avatar
	And what stops people from "training" their officers by giving them unshielded ships and running away ASAP. If a few 10 hulled ships are lost...fine, but the few that escape get exp, while again the POOR winner gains nothing. I really hate the idea!! In the end I'd rather see BSE way again. They get exp by time served, or if you want to speed up the process (a Top Gun academy) you pay a heavy stellar price
JasTomo
	QUOTE I really hate the idea!! In the end I'd rather see BSE way again. They get exp by time served, or if you want to speed up the process (a Top Gun academy) you pay a heavy stellar price This sound good to me... I suppose it is the same with troops experience i.e. Marines to Veteran Marine etc... This does seem a little strange... But, I can see why a captain in the small ship running from the heavily armed fleet would get the experience... Like Han Solo running from Mos Isley (However its spelt) past the two heavily armed star destroyers and escaping with minor damage... This skilled captain out mannered the fools on the star-destroyers... BUT, had the star-destroyers creamed Han-Solo would they have gained no experience for the encounter (If Han had not managed to damage them?). I feel you should gain as much experience for causing damage as receiving it. To stop players running off and destroying small 10 hulled ships with baseships you could use a formula... i.e.: (errrm, come on think of one before you look stupid, douh, too late....)... Ok so your ships hit points/damage/you know... verses the target ships (This would take into account the amount of hulls and the hull type) so if you have more damage/hit points than your opponent you receive less exp. Per hit point of damage caused and vice versa... Wow solo brain storming, I need a coffee... This could include total fire power of ships involved, defence of ships, etc... This could get complex, but would be worth it in the end...
Mica Goldstone
	Any experience system that gives rewards for risk free actions will be abused. Therefore game mechanics must be imposed to prevent this even if they do not quite mirror reality. The experience through damage is simply a perk as the damage suffered is invariably much greater than benefit gained, and there is always the chance that the officer will be killed. Should anybody be insane enough to destroy a few 10 hull ships simply to gain a few percent experience let them the truth is that it is not worth it. Ships are free to run, why not use multiple ships than one with a slightly better officer. The comment regarding running defenceless in order to gain experience is actually valid - the best pilots come from those that risk everything. An officer who is totally protected does not have to use his wits and can rely on standard drill. Those that are in a desperate situation will attempt desperate things and learn! They will push their ships and their crews to the limits they will write their own rulebook on what can and cannot be done with the ship.
JasTomo
	hmmm, good get out, very political but still not perfect. I do feel that at least time should have a bearing (For all I know it already does...). This way the freighter captain who has learnt to keep out of harms way will slowly gain experience also...
David Bethel
	First experience is based on either the damage you do or the damage you take - which ever is smaller. To get experience you have to 'be' in the battle ie get hit and take damage. Frieghter captains will gain no combat experience (which is what we are talking about) with this mechanism and never will. I will most likely implement a few none combat experiences based on completing other orders. ie land and taking off a lot may give a bonus to with man speed or integrity loss. There are lots of skills that can be implemented for captains but when things are a bit quieter. So if you have ideas post them here.....
Duckworth-Lewis
	Well one thing - leading on from Jastomo's post - if a freighter captain successfully flee's a battle that could be considered experience (the ship may not be much use in a pitched battle - but sometimes you may want the captain/ship/crew that will have a chance of to running a blockade) Similarly a successful emegency jump
Ro'a-lith
	Then, perhaps an experience boost to the ships combat speed for freighter captains that successfully escape combat, after taking damage (of course).
JasTomo
	QUOTE I will most likely implement a few none combat experiences based on completing other orders. ie land and taking off a lot may give a bonus to with man speed or integrity loss. There are lots of skills that can be implemented for captains but when things are a bit quieter. So if you have ideas post them here..... I like the sound of this... Its nice to have a flexible game programmer who is willing to listen to the requests of the players... I do feel that captains need skills or specialisations... this would make them more important and therefore add to the role playing element in the game...
Mica Goldstone
	QUOTE (JasTomo @ Jun 27 2003, 08:40 AM) I do feel that captains need skills or specialisations... this would make them more important and therefore add to the role playing element in the game...   Absolutely - a captain that flees will be get nice 'role playing' traits such as coward meaning that he has a good chance of always buggering off as soon as the fighting starts, even if he controlled the death star. Captains that continue to use orders that fail could accidently jettison cargo, or crash their ships. Ships that sit around doing nothing could have to pay higher employee transfer fees in order to bribe crew for boring tours of duty. Just kidding, in a Friday morning wind-up mood
Mandible
	QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Jun 27 2003, 09:55 AM) QUOTE (JasTomo @ Jun 27 2003, 08:40 AM) I do feel that captains need skills or specialisations... this would make them more important and therefore add to the role playing element in the game...   Absolutely - a captain that flees will be get nice 'role playing' traits such as coward meaning that he has a good chance of always buggering off as soon as the fighting starts, even if he controlled the death star. Captains that continue to use orders that fail could accidently jettison cargo, or crash their ships. Ships that sit around doing nothing could have to pay higher employee transfer fees in order to bribe crew for boring tours of duty. Just kidding, in a Friday morning wind-up mood I actually think losing experience for certain actions would be a good thing! Ships that do nothing, continuously repeat the same actions, flee at the first sight of combat, etc - the loss in experience would have to be tied to the type of ship...a cargo vessel fleeing combat is ok, but a war ship that flees has a chance of losing some experience, for example. i also think it would be nice to be able to spend experience to buy bonuses for the officer (and therefore the ship) - rather than fixed increases to certain stats as it is at the moment. it makes the officers far more unique, as each would be slightly different. This could also be tied in to the rank issue, with better things to spend the experience on for higher ranked officers. A Major could use his experience to improve ships integrity, dodge ability, or whatever, whilst a captain could use it to improve sensor power or something. Mandible
Emma
	QUOTE i also think it would be nice to be able to spend experience to buy bonuses i like the idea of choosing what to specialise in. It would create a lot more individuality which i always think is a nice aspect of any game.
JasTomo
	QUOTE i like the idea of choosing what to specialise in. It would create a lot more individuality which i always think is a nice aspect of any game. This would also enable affiliations to specilise more... So the SMS couls have captains with eceptional skill in surveying and prospecting making them faster and more accurate than other less specialised captains. This way it would make scence for other affs to hire them...
Jons
	I must say that I also like the idea of being able to specialise in certain things. It only states experience on the ship turn not combat experience so why have it only avaliable to warship captains. I have transfered all my officers over from my cargo vessels when Pheonix started because they had built up a lot of experience due to long term service. Why not have bonuses for a cargo captain raher than just for getting his ship ambushed by a PIR and getting some exp that way. I would still like to see some sort of training complex for officers though. Every aff runs warships so every aff should be able to train their officers. Currently if I have a battle, I will use heavy hulled warships to engage the enemy then on the second day bring in my fleet carriers, this way the enemy will already have pinned my warships and the fleet carriers are free to let loose their spf's without running the risk of getting their light hulls shoot to pieces. This is a good way to keep them in one piece but will see them getting zero exp from every battle (unless other warships enter combat of course). They still need to position themselves well within the battle to get optimum fighter coverage, constantly avoid stray missile/photon fire but nothing will reflect this currently. Cheers Jons - SMS
David Bethel
	QUOTE It only states experience on the ship turn not combat experience so why have it only avaliable to warship It means combat experience, if its a real issue i will add the word 'combat'.
JasTomo
	QUOTE It means combat experience, if its a real issue i will add the word 'combat'. All that just to have the word COMBAT inserted on your turn sheet... Oh well and there we were trying to spice up the starship captains in the game. Well I suppose that ship positions are free in the game and we cannot expect too must from them. I would like to see the ship rank names changed though, this would be more meaningful... i.e. Flagship instead if Admiral... you've read my other posts on the issue...
Steve-Law
	If that is indeed all that's needed then a change the manual to explain that experience is explicitly combat experience is all that needs to be changed isn't it?
JasTomo
	QUOTE (Steve-Law @ Jun 30 2003, 10:19 AM) If that is indeed all that's needed then a change the manual to explain that experience is explicitly combat experience is all that needs to be changed isn't it? You are right of course, but... The players who like to play explorers or traders still have nothing to help their captains. I does also take a little of the role playing out. On a high risk run with a ship full of blueprints you may need to transfer your best captain and his ship from a far of system in order to get this precious cargo to its destination with minimum risk. It may also become useful to use an affiliation who have excellent freighter captains to transport goods for you... I'm not looking for these changes to take place, I was mearly agreeing with the person who started the thread that more role playing would be created by the use of more personalised attributes and abilities for individuals such as starship captains, colony governors & political positions (Who are next to redundant with regards to playability, £2 a week for a central bank). At the end of the day I love this game and do not want to be seen as someone complaining about various issues of the game. I would also like to commend Mica and David for being so open to players views and opinions. I don't know many other games with this level of player interaction with the game mechanics. So, although I do enjoy the game immensely and feel we players get an immense amount of support from the powers that be, I do feel that this immensely complex strategy game would benefit from a little more in-game role play. (Ok so players assume the personalities of political leaders and negotiate trade and war, but he new player only has his first ship to be sentimental about and soon want bigger ships). If your captain improved and... ahh, you know what I mean... just another sad Monday at work and I'm bored
Romanov
	Hi, Perhaps a major problem with officer experience is that using the current system it is practically useless. I say this because officer experience is added to both accuracy and dodge, if I read the rules right. This is a current nebulon ship set up Targeting Bonus: 3.87 Sensor Power: | | Base Accuracy: 8.83 Officer Bonus: 1.96 | | Armour: 60 Combat Speed: 4.4 | | Dodge: 7.36 | Base accuracy is Target Bonus + Officer bonus + 3 Dodge is combat speed + Officer bonus but there is a negative not included in these calculations. This is the dodge penalty which is Target bonus - Dodge = -3.49 So total Base Accuracy is 5.34 If you take out the officer Targeting Bonus: 3.87 Sensor Power: | | Base Accuracy: 6.87 Officer Bonus: 0| | Armour: 60 Combat Speed: 4.4 | | Dodge: 5.4 Now the Dodge penalty is - 1.53 and the total base accuracy is 5.34. Exactly the same. Obviously the higher experience means you do have a higher dodge but higher dodge means less ships hit you and you get less experience (which is a neat way of putting in a experience limiting curve). So having a good officer in a ship with high dodge is pointless if you want to hit more things. Instead you have to put your best officers in slower ships so they get a lower dodge penalty but because they are in slower ships they get pinned and therefore blown up. David if this not the case then please state, ie the dodge penalty is calculated before the dodge is adjusted for officer experience. I would also like to see dodge penalty in the list of combat stats. Nic
David Bethel
	QUOTE David if this not the case then please state, ie the dodge penalty is calculated before the dodge is adjusted for officer experience. Yes dodge penalty is based purely on the speed component of dodge. So officer exp and intertial stabs do not effect it, so officer are effective and not pants Thanks for mentioning it though and i will do the reporting changes to make it clearer. I may revamp the whole sections.