If this is the case, I would certainly consider this a major loophole in the rules. I always thought that shuttle complexes were civilian transportation. I have a hard time imagining civilian style bus/passenger yahts/cargo transports/shuttles running a gauntlet of thousands of antiaircraft emplacements, gattling lasers, phalanx launchers, thousands of photon weapons, thousands of missle launchers and all the other weapons on a major starbase without being obliterated.
If this was the method of movement for the non shuttle ready units, I think there is a real problem.
If they were moved via shuttle craft, shouldn't the shuttle craft have been in the GP attacking the base?
What am I missing?
Goth
(of course this is regarding the Outcast attack)
| QUOTE |
| What am I missing? |
The point I think.
Keep in mind, items such as combat shuttles exist, which would require the services of shuttle complexes to enable deployment of them. In essence, as I understand it, the only significant difference between a shuttle and a combat shuttle is the ability to move life forms.
It should also be noted that these shuttles are both very fast and very small. It seems to me that targetting of these items is not a impossible position, but maintaining lock on and a firing solution would be difficult, especially, since there are so many other larger targets with a greater theoritical threat level.
Now shuttleports themselves are not 'transporter rooms' al la Star Trek, but represent, to my mind at least, a collection of shuttles of indeterminate type operated from a ground based location. The total MU's that can be moved by a said shuttle port of a given size is just an in-game mechanic to simplify the mechanics of moving equivalent quantities of the combat and ordinary shuttles nothing more or less. In this light, I see absolutely no difference between shuttles launced from a ship or a ground based environment.
In brief, I am suggesting that to consider a shuttle port as a civilian only service is a poor hypothesis. Shuttle ports form part of a local infrastructure. There are thousands of recorded instances in history, where different infrastructural elements are used in a military fashion for supply missions et el.
Whilst I am by no means an in-game military genius, ideas have ocurred to me on how to address the tactical and strategic aspects of this problem.
Possibly it would be in your interests the next time you plan a strike somewhere that you assign a task in your TACOPS and LOGOPS planning to consider this issue. Maybe you could also develop some creative ways to solve this problem.
Archangel
Only items that have ground defence stats will participate in ground combat otherwise you could bring anything with an attack force to simply sock up damage even though they are not capable of fighting (would be an extra advantage for attackers in this case).
Thomas
So in theory they could be used to bolster a GP in the same sector as a starbase, but not one that has already docked.
Shuttle port deliveriess are considered to be similar to lots of incredibly small GP's. Small GP's regularly pass unnoticed on worlds with starbases. Obviously once all these deliveries arrive at the same location and organise into a single position with a purpose then this is something else entirely.
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Sep 5 2005, 10:39 AM) |
| Shuttle ports deliver to a position at a location. They cannot however deliver to a docked position. So in theory they could be used to bolster a GP in the same sector as a starbase, but not one that has already docked. Shuttle port deliveriess are considered to be similar to lots of incredibly small GP's. Small GP's regularly pass unnoticed on worlds with starbases. Obviously once all these deliveries arrive at the same location and organise into a single position with a purpose then this is something else entirely. |
So, it would be impossible to use shuttle ports to deliver a GP directly into an enemy starbase (thus avoiding long range ground combat) because the "small GPs" would have to land in the sector and "form up" which would give the base a chance to shoot.
If however, an enemy had a GP of shuttle craft, they could embark a second GP onto that shuttle GP. Once aboard the shuttle GP the ground GP could then be shuttled directly into an enemy starbase and disembarked there (as a docked GP) thereby avoiding long range ground combat....right?
Goth
| QUOTE (Goth @ Sep 5 2005, 12:53 PM) |
| If however, an enemy had a GP of shuttle craft, they could embark a second GP onto that shuttle GP. Once aboard the shuttle GP the ground GP could then be shuttled directly into an enemy starbase and disembarked there (as a docked GP) thereby avoiding long range ground combat....right? |
Why the need to embark the assault GP. Why not put the shuttles in the assault GP (i.e. one huge GP) as you don't want too divide your crew factors. The shuttles will also soak up damage (or?) in the ground combat making life easier for the grunts on the ground.
| QUOTE (Thali Rahm @ Sep 5 2005, 01:45 PM) | ||
Why the need to embark the assault GP. Why not put the shuttles in the assault GP (i.e. one huge GP) as you don't want too divide your crew factors. The shuttles will also soak up damage (or?) in the ground combat making life easier for the grunts on the ground. |
There were no shuttles in the massive GP that landed on outcasts without taking any space or long range fire. The troops and tanks were not even close to being shuttle capable based on the units in the attacking GP.
Goth
Therefore from the perspective of the attacking GP, they do not see the civilian and naval items of the starbase when it comes to the battle and from the perspective of the defending starbase they do not see the civilian items of the GP, i.e. its non-combat shuttles etc.
Obviously the orders such as scout and detailed scan can be used where appropriate to determine more details, providing that the combat lasts long enough.
| QUOTE (Goth @ Sep 5 2005, 01:59 PM) |
| There were no shuttles in the massive GP that landed on outcasts without taking any space or long range fire. The troops and tanks were not even close to being shuttle capable based on the units in the attacking GP. |
I do find it funny that long range weapons (like Arts and Ground Bombers) don't assault an enemy GP that is being formed... We are talking about units that have planetary range, if they can't be used to harrass an attacking GP whats the use for them???
Long range is great at blowing things up from a distance. They can also fire even when the shield complexes are active. If you didn't bother with it, a would-be attacker could then build up out of range with ground equipment without the need to make the GP shuttle capable.
Long range are an option. If you prefer space fighters, missiles and rail weapons and no shield complexes, then go for it.
| QUOTE (Sjaak @ Sep 5 2005, 02:50 PM) | ||
I do find it funny that long range weapons (like Arts and Ground Bombers) don't assault an enemy GP that is being formed... We are talking about units that have planetary range, if they can't be used to harrass an attacking GP whats the use for them??? |
I would certainly expect at least antiaircraft, gattling lasers, phalanx to have a shot at them (even a ship being boarded gets that shot).
Goth
Mica has stated that long range fire can be used to attack other planet based positions, this is true but the difficult thing is seeing them to start a battle. Starbases cannot see other planet based positions. You can see them if you have a platform but with no platform you cannot see them. Any attacking force would take out the platform first so the starbase has to watch as ships deliver the GP to the ground unable to trigger a battle. You could trigger the battle with a GP but the new rules prevent GPs being created by positions in combat so even if you had 50k ground bombers you might find yourself in a very difficult position.
One solution may be to allow any starbase to see any position on the same planet which as > 100% sensor profile.
One problem that the recent ground battles may have shown was that the shuttles took no splash damage during the GP vs starbase. In today's battle between the GP and the Defence force GP, the shuttles took splash damage. This lack of splash damage would not have changed the outcome but I believe that I should have lost x MUs of shuttles considering I lost x MUs of tanks.
Nic
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Sep 5 2005, 03:09 PM) |
| It comes down to which basket you want to put your eggs in. Long range is great at blowing things up from a distance. They can also fire even when the shield complexes are active. If you didn't bother with it, a would-be attacker could then build up out of range with ground equipment without the need to make the GP shuttle capable. Long range are an option. If you prefer space fighters, missiles and rail weapons and no shield complexes, then go for it. |
Well, I tend to have lots of baskets to put my eggs into :-)
Lets assume you are attacking an starbase on another planet, and that enemy got you as ENEMY on his lists. My idea would be.
1. Take Space Control in the Orbital.
Enemy Platforms/Ships should be able to work like an Defence Guard and should be permitted to engage troop/cargo ships first. (If the base owner wants).
2. Take Space Control in the orbit itself.
If starbase got active Space Weapons, the starbase should decide as smart as possible what to attack. Enemy Freighters/Troop transports would be an obvious target, including big GP's.. (leave the small GP's behind).. Ofcourse Starbase owner will decide in default settings.
3. GP's tries to land.
Long Range weapons (ground bombers/AAE/Arts) will engage them.
4. GP's land and invade.
Normal Combat.
At this moment part three seems to be missing, I don't know what happened with the Outcost case, but it seems to be hard that Long Range weapons didn't have time to assault an GP which is being formed at that moment..
| QUOTE (Romanov @ Sep 5 2005, 09:09 PM) |
| One solution may be to allow any starbase to see any position on the same planet which as > 100% sensor profile. |
First off, the attack was well executed and a great tactical/logistical success. I didn't control that Outcasts base but I doubt the preparations I would have had in place would have made a difference (not realizing it was possible to drop past most of the traditional defenses like that).
I guess your solution of having a starbase be able to spot GPs would be a good one. I would think that a base that has thousands of sensors, ground fighters, bombers and such would be able to see most ground forces coming (certainly one that probably darkened the sky when it came).
It is fine by me if the rules stay the way they are, this sort of thing cuts both ways. I'm also curious about the follow up/protection of that isolated system... It will make for some interesting strategic choices....
Goth
| QUOTE (Romanov @ Sep 5 2005, 09:09 PM) |
| Mica has stated that long range fire can be used to attack other planet based positions, this is true but the difficult thing is seeing them to start a battle. Starbases cannot see other planet based positions. You can see them if you have a platform but with no platform you cannot see them. Any attacking force would take out the platform first so the starbase has to watch as ships deliver the GP to the ground unable to trigger a battle. You could trigger the battle with a GP but the new rules prevent GPs being created by positions in combat so even if you had 50k ground bombers you might find yourself in a very difficult position. One solution may be to allow any starbase to see any position on the same planet which as > 100% sensor profile. One problem that the recent ground battles may have shown was that the shuttles took no splash damage during the GP vs starbase. In today's battle between the GP and the Defence force GP, the shuttles took splash damage. This lack of splash damage would not have changed the outcome but I believe that I should have lost x MUs of shuttles considering I lost x MUs of tanks. Nic |
While it is true that you cannot see a GP directly from a starbase, this is perfectly reasonable as it prevents a starbase from simply stocking up on long range weapons and mashing anything that is anywhere on the planet.
The trick therefore is in how to engage the forming GP before it has built up sufficient strength to initiate an attack itself.
You have to use a platform, ship or GP to trigger the battle then the long range weapons of the starbase will join in.
In orbit you could have a very small korondite plated platform scanning sectors.
If the invading fleet has spent sufficient effort to mince this, then you can bring in a tiny cloaked ship to scan while hopefully evading detection.
The other alternative is to create recon GP's in the starbase. Note that this is possible while the starbase has 100% control irrespective of what is happening in orbit. While the invading GP is still being established elsewhere on the planet it is very unlikely that the starbase will have lost any control. These then have to spread out over the planet, seeking the enemy, just don't forget to add them to the enemy list and make sure that the GP's have some scout factors.
Whatever you do, reaction time is of the essence, either scanning sectors or creating the GP's.
If you think this is difficult, try planning an assault instead and let them think about this side of the business.
