As well as bypassing the point defense the missile hit also bypassed the starbase shields. A further bug in my opinion.
The three ships hit were all destroyed
Incoming Fire from DOM High Meridian (2903)
-------------------------------------------
Round 1: 2497 Artillery mkIIs
- 2496 hits - 53606 [74880] damage - 100%
95 Light Rail Guns (APEX)
- 95 hits - 3304 [8550] damage - 100%
30 Rail Guns (APEX)
- 30 hits - 2345 [5400] damage - 100%
4760 Missile Launchers (Kinetic Missile)
- 0 hit - 0 [0] damage - 100%
- Point Defence shot down 4758 Kinetic Missiles
3301 Missile Launcher mkIIs (Kinetic Missile)
- 0 hit - 0 [0] damage - 100%
- Point Defence shot down 3300 Kinetic Missiles
---------------------DTR SHIP Helix of the Spectrum (39702)---------------------
We are docked in a position under fire.
Shields are down
Incoming Fire from DOM High Meridian (2903)
-------------------------------------------
Round 1: 1 Missile Launcher (Kinetic Missile)
- 1 hit - 60 [60] damage - 100%
Round 2: 1 Missile Launcher (Kinetic Missile)
- 1 hit - 60 [60] damage - 100%
Round 4: 1 Missile Launcher mkII (Kinetic Missile)
- 1 hit - 60 [60] damage - 100%
--------------------------DTR GROUND PARTY O3 (72024)---------------------------
We are docked in a position under fire.
Shields are down
Incoming Fire from DOM High Meridian (2903)
-------------------------------------------
Round 1: 1 Light Rail Gun (APEX)
- 1 hit - 23 [90] damage - 100%
Round 2: 1 Artillery mkII
- 1 hit - 1 [30] damage - 100%
Round 4: 1 Missile Launcher mkII (Kinetic Missile)
- 1 hit - 60 [60] damage - 100%
| QUOTE (Romanov @ Oct 10 2005, 03:02 PM) |
| Incoming Fire from DOM High Meridian (2903) ------------------------------------------- Round 1: 2497 Artillery mkIIs <SNIP> 4760 Missile Launchers (Kinetic Missile) - 0 hit - 0 [0] damage - 100% - Point Defence shot down 4758 Kinetic Missiles 3301 Missile Launcher mkIIs (Kinetic Missile) - 0 hit - 0 [0] damage - 100% - Point Defence shot down 3300 Kinetic Missiles ---------------------DTR SHIP Helix of the Spectrum (39702)--------------------- We are docked in a position under fire. Shields are down Incoming Fire from DOM High Meridian (2903) ------------------------------------------- Round 1: 1 Missile Launcher (Kinetic Missile) - 1 hit - 60 [60] damage - 100% Round 2: 1 Missile Launcher (Kinetic Missile) - 1 hit - 60 [60] damage - 100% Round 4: 1 Missile Launcher mkII (Kinetic Missile) - 1 hit - 60 [60] damage - 100% |
Note that on round 1 of combat, the starbase let through 2 Missile Mk I's and 1 Missile Mk II (apparently not shot down by PD). This appears to be reflected in what hit your docked positions...
Cheers,
Rich Fanning
aka
Lord Lawrence Scrimm
CIA Intelligence Director
because that missile is in effect being shot at another position, the main target ignores it.
i suppose the program has to do that, otherwise if 2 ships are next to each other and one of the ships has gatling lasers not being operated as its not being targeted, you can expect them to fire at the missiles coming into the other ship. or can you?
| QUOTE (Gandolph @ Oct 11 2005, 10:10 AM) |
| gatling lasers will only shoot down missiles that are coming directly into your position. because that missile is in effect being shot at another position, the main target ignores it. i suppose the program has to do that, otherwise if 2 ships are next to each other and one of the ships has gatling lasers not being operated as its not being targeted, you can expect them to fire at the missiles coming into the other ship. or can you? |
I would say this is quite different. Ships, even when close, are still kilometers apart from each other whereas a ship docked in the starport of a starbase is in a starbase. I would find it very strange if point defence takes down missiles which hit a fuel truck 5m from the landed ship but ignore those which actually hit the ship.
Nik
but a starbase is big as well, and i would have thought comparable to a major city, so it is possible that a ship is in the starbase and docked and still several kilometers away from the next position. even on the same military runways there are several kilomters from one end to the other, imagine those defences being spread all around london and 8k of missiles are fired at it and a missile gets through, would that happen?.
like i say there are many possibles on this and i suppose its who's view you ask and at what time etc.
As I understand if you have a GP of 100kMUs and a starbase of 900kMUs then 1/10 of hits will hit the GP. This was designed so that you could not put all your good stuff in the GP and protect it. This is logical and makes sense.
However I believe that all the defenses of the starbase should be applied to the incoming weapons before the hits/damage is split between the GP and the starbase. The GP is not sitting in the sector it is spread about the starbase. The Starbase would not just ignore the missiles that it thought would hit the GP. The firing starbase cannot see the GP so cannot target it.
Under the current rules if your starbase has 1 mill gats, I can still hit any ship that is docked if you get lucky that my missiles hits the ship rather than the starbase.
There is also the concern about how damage is applied to positions docked on ships. In this case the ship surrounds the docked position. Does the same happen in this case?
Ships/GP's in the starport are currently not treated as protected by the starbase defences although cannot be targeted directly and only suffer hits based on relative mass of starbase to position. The question is therefore, would it make a vastly better game if they were protected? I am led to understand that this is not a minor change to the code.
| QUOTE (Gandolph @ Oct 11 2005, 11:54 AM) |
| i am not saying that your gats shouldnt have stopped it, my jury is out on that one but a starbase is big as well, and i would have thought comparable to a major city, so it is possible that a ship is in the starbase and docked and still several kilometers away from the next position. even on the same military runways there are several kilomters from one end to the other, imagine those defences being spread all around london and 8k of missiles are fired at it and a missile gets through, would that happen?. like i say there are many possibles on this and i suppose its who's view you ask and at what time etc. |
I agree that if some missiles got through point defence then there wouldn't be a problem with some missiles hitting the docked ships. But in this case, none got through _except_ those hitting the docked ships. So even if the runway is kilometers long, the runway is totally protected from missiles by the point defence of the starbase (otherwise missiles would have got through) except in the exact spot where the ship sits. I think this is strange.
However. The fact that Mica states that solving this problem is non-trivial and that it is not a major flaw in the game I see little point in this bux being fixed until a later date - at least until other major upgrades have been done and the bugs sorted out.
Nik
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Oct 12 2005, 08:53 AM) |
| Positions embarked on ships are flagged as cargo. They therefore soak penetrating damage, not full incoming damage. Ships/GP's in the starport are currently not treated as protected by the starbase defences although cannot be targeted directly and only suffer hits based on relative mass of starbase to position. The question is therefore, would it make a vastly better game if they were protected? I am led to understand that this is not a minor change to the code. |
Hi,
I think the two quoted paragraphs demonstrate a clear separation in treatment of docked positions, and in part, understandably so.
However, there are also a number of important differences between a docked position in a ship and a star base.
Dealing with docking of a ship, again there are two clear possibilities and depends primarly on the 'cargo' type that is docked and the facilities of the ship to which the GP or position has docked.
The initial seperation of possibilities here occurs when a ship contains 'bays', 'holds' or 'decks'. Due to the very meaning of the words 'bay' and 'hold' this can only be an internal structure and thus governed by the rules of penetrating hits et al.
On the other hand, a 'deck' could just as easily be an internal structure as an external structure, viz. a typical aircraft carrier of today. Some discussion should occur on this context to determine a reasonable definition of a rule to resolve this ambiguity
On the other hand, when docking with a star base, the turn report provides the text 'Orbital docks are landing you.' which I have always interpreted to mean that orbital docks behave in a similar fashion to a tug boat towing a surface ship to a safe tie up point within the harbour. It is assumed that the 'tie up point' at a star base is not situated in a location adjacent to the starbase, but within its confines. This assumption is based on the fact that the docked GP/ship cannot be directly targeted.
IF the above inferences and assumptions are accurate, then given the physical properties of ballistic weapons systems and photon weapon systems it hard to conclude that a docked position does not lie within the defence envelope that they provide.
To the question: Would a software amendment to correct this situation lead to a vastly better gain; Of course it would. Anything that can provide a proper rational handling of an aspect of the game and simultaneously resolves ambiguities must by its very outcome lead to the elimination of unnecessary unhappiness with the in-game mechanics and the minimization of further debate.
It is sad that a correction as contemplated would require a substantial code change. However, thats the SDLC for you.