Goth
I don't understand how this could happen (see below). My understanding of the pepper rule or the ISR damage was to prevent XLT and LT hull warships to be used as throw aways. From everything written, normal hulled ships were supposed to take none to very little damage from this "pre-attack". The ship below was new and had no damage before the battle started. Why not just make a rule that the Light and x-tra light hulls are not able to mount offensive weapons? If you need a "real world reason".... easy.... the hulls are too weak for the recoil/port holes/mountings/heat... whatever. Simple solutions to simple problems.

How much damage should something like this do to a normal hulled ships?

Phoenix: Beyond the Stellar Empire
KJC Games
www.kjcgames.com/phoenix

BATTLE REPORT

Printed on 20th September 2005, Star Date 205.38.2

Location:
London (41) - {Gamma,4} - orbit of Picadilly (301)

----------------------------GTT SHIP 20H24T2
(27362)----------------------------

Shields are down

Post Battle Summary
-------------------
Ship exploded due to excessive ISR stresses before the battle.
Enemy ISR field stress caused 103 damage.
Ship hulls have taken 2000 damage (100%)


---------------------------------Battle
Summary---------------------------------

GTT 20H24T2 (27362) - Ship
Wren Class Gun Boat {No Armour}
Hull Damage: 100.0%
BLOWN UP!
Retreated from battle
AFT Return (4313) - Starbase
Scints: 13.1 Shields: 199400(11.6)
Retreated from battle
AFT Breakwater (7387) - Platform
Scints: 6.5 Shields: 16000(57.0)
Retreated from battle
AFT New Ship (42286) - Ship
Firebrand Class Destroyer {Medium Ablative Armour}
Armour: 60.0 Shields: 1600(32.2)
Docked non-combatant
AFT New Ship (75774) - Ship
Venturer X2 Class Explorer {No Armour}
Shields: 200(15.4)
Docked non-combatant
AFT New Ship (79131) - Ship
Venturer X2 Class Explorer {No Armour}
Shields: 200(15.4)
Docked non-combatant
AFT New Ship (86872) - Ship
Firebrand Class Destroyer {Medium Ablative Armour}
Armour: 60.0 Shields: 1600(32.2)
Docked non-combatant
AFT New Ship (90126) - Ship
Venturer X Class Sensor Ship {No Armour}
Shields: 200(15.4)
Docked non-combatant
AFT New Ship (92136) - Ship
Firebrand Class Destroyer {Medium Ablative Armour}
Armour: 60.0 Shields: 1600(32.2)
Docked non-combatant
CIA Wasp (960) - Ship
Runner Class Fast Freighter {No Armour}
Hull Damage: 22.9%
Retreated from battle
Rich Farry
Your ship has no armour...
Dan Reed
even so, it looks on the face of things like there's a large multiplier coming into play - 103 damage reported, then 2,000 damage to hulls

Dan
Goth
QUOTE (Rich Farry @ Sep 20 2005, 09:42 PM)
Your ship has no armour...

From everything I have read about this ISR damage, nothing was ever even inferred that lack of armor would lead to at least a 20x multiplier (considering that there were 20 undamaged normal hulls starting out...maybe the multiplier is far greater since the hulls were 100% destroyed...what was the excess?).

According to the battle report, 1 50 hulled ship utterly destroyed an undamaged 20 normal hulled ship with ISR "pre-attack".

If this is not a bug, what is going to happen to unarmored carriers and such? People can basically "drive past" them and destroy them without a shot being fired?

I'm not complaining, just trying to see if this is really what the designers intended. I thought the whole idea was to keep XLT and LT hulls from using offensive weapons.

What would happen to an unarmored HEAVY HULLED ship? It appears that it would take at least 2000 pts of damage.... what if there are multiple ships?

Doesn't really make sense to me. If any of this is true, the best weapon in the universe may very well be ISR 1 drives....
Lord Scrimm
You didn't, perchance, have Torpedoes aboard that ship did you? (like the last one visiting Picadilly)... wink.gif

No Armour + Torpedoes + ISR Stress + Cascade Damage = BOOM!!! biggrin.gif

Rich Fanning
aka ph34r.gif
Lord Lawrence Scrimm
CIA Intelligence Director
David Bethel
QUOTE
From everything I have read about this ISR damage, nothing was ever even inferred that lack of armor would lead to at least a 20x multiplier (considering that there were 20 undamaged normal hulls starting out...maybe the multiplier is far greater since the hulls were 100% destroyed...what was the excess?).


From the notes:
CODE
The dmg from the attacks is modified by the Stress of the ship and armour/shields reduces any dmg done.


Its not much but it has been noted. Its about what i would expect - stress=1 for normal hulls ship and 1x10x10 attacks = 100.... so 10 attacks land in the ship. If the torps are in cargo its over, if you have magazines its less to worry about.

QUOTE
No Armour + Torpedoes + ISR Stress + Cascade Damage = BOOM!!!

That would be my guess.
Goth
QUOTE (David Bethel @ Sep 21 2005, 10:09 AM)


Its not much but it has been noted. Its about what i would expect - stress=1 for normal hulls ship and 1x10x10 attacks = 100.... so 10 attacks land in the ship. If the torps are in cargo its over, if you have magazines its less to worry about.

[

So I guess even a Heavy Hulled ship without armour would take internal damage?

Since these are strength 10 attacks (are they?) would you need a sheild depth of 20 to absorb the attacks?

I'm just wondering if all NORMAL hulled unarmored fighting ships are obsolete or not.

Goth
Gandolph
can you just check that battle again David, as the report to me looks as though most of the ships are docked non combatant, the only ship that isnt is a freighter, No warships?

its a bit wierd to me that there was only 2 ships in the battle, a GTT ship and a CIA ship, the GTT ship falls to bits, and the CIA gets hull damage and no ones fired a shot. but if is cos he has no mags then fair enough.

"edited"

so 2 questions?

even when you attack freighters you will still receive damage if you havent got armour, when they have no weapons

i would like confirmation that basically armour would have stopped the damage to the normal hulls?
ptb
QUOTE (Goth @ Sep 21 2005, 12:36 PM)

So I guess even a Heavy Hulled ship without armour would take internal damage?

Since these are strength 10 attacks (are they?) would you need a sheild depth of 20 to absorb the attacks?

I'm just wondering if all NORMAL hulled unarmored fighting ships are obsolete or not.

If the hh ship has no armour then yes it should take damage internally.

But don't forget stress factor, you'd only need 10 depth armour (as the shots would be 5 damage each)

Finally if those torpedos (or whatever exploded) where in magazines i assume this wouldn't have happend, yes that reduces cargo space on comabt ships but it gives you a choice smile.gif
David Bethel
QUOTE
can you just check that battle again David, as the report to me looks as though most of the ships are docked non combatant, the only ship that isnt is a freighter, No warships?


Runner Class Fast Freighter {No Armour}
Hull Damage: 22.9%
Retreated from battle

The above caused the issue, however i have corrected the slight issue with docked ships contributing to teh ISR attacks (these did not).

QUOTE
but if is cos he has no mags then fair enough.

Can this be confirmed pls ? I am going to add something to report cascade dmg.

CODE
even when you attack freighters you will still receive damage if you havent got armour, when they have no weapons

Yes but only a small amount

QUOTE
i would like confirmation that basically armour would have stopped the damage to the normal hulls?

Yes it would, if it was over 20 AR.

QUOTE
I'm just wondering if all NORMAL hulled unarmored fighting ships are obsolete or not.

No - but ships with no armour and full of torps in cargo bays are. A heavy hull ship would have had the same problem. With just 20 torps (20x600) dmg internally (with no armour effect...) 12000 -> 30 heavy hulls gone. I got mica to check the ship, and basically there was nothing left.
Goth
QUOTE (David Bethel @ Sep 21 2005, 12:53 PM)

QUOTE
but if is cos he has no mags then fair enough.

Can this be confirmed pls ? I am going to add something to report cascade dmg.


The attacking ship was not using Mags, it had either Cargo Bays or Holds because it held enough ammo for one round of firing (assumed the bay would be empty before it got destroyed).

Would shields prevent the damage from getting through (and at what depth)?

Otherwise, maybe allow our Small ship BPs to be upgraded to include armour?

Goth
David Bethel
QUOTE
Would shields prevent the damage from getting through (and at what depth)?


Yes - depth 20-30 depending on how unlucky you are.However armour / shields can have a 0 effect on a weapon and hence on average no dmg gets through but every now and again all the dmg gets through for 1 shot. So to protecet vs this use magazines.

QUOTE
Otherwise, maybe allow our Small ship BPs to be upgraded to include armour?

There are suggestions that we shoudl allow armour to be refited via a order also.
Goth
QUOTE (David Bethel @ Sep 21 2005, 02:05 PM)
QUOTE
Would shields prevent the damage from getting through (and at what depth)?


Yes - depth 20-30 depending on how unlucky you are.However armour / shields can have a 0 effect on a weapon and hence on average no dmg gets through but every now and again all the dmg gets through for 1 shot. So to protecet vs this use magazines.

QUOTE
Otherwise, maybe allow our Small ship BPs to be upgraded to include armour?

There are suggestions that we shoudl allow armour to be refited via a order also.

Thanks, now I understand. This effect is actually good, it will make "cheap shot" attacks alot riskier...protecting freighters a lot easier (as it should be).

I guess the poaching party is over......... for now.

Goth