in phoenix. These generic versions do not have a planet
of origin and so they sell for their base value where ever
they are sold
Unique trade goods have a planet of origin set and the
further away they are from that planet the higher their
value becomes. There is a multiplier of their value as follows
Same Planet x1
Same system x3 (but not same planet)
Same Periphery X8
Different Periphery X12-16
Each week a planet demands a certain number of each type
of goods. If more that this number of goods are sold then the
market will saturate and the sale price will decrease (and will
stay low until the market demand is restored).
So a planet with a demand of 1000 trade goods will take 1000ms
of foods at the standard price. If 2000 mus of foods are sold the
first 1000 will be at the standard proice and the next 1000mus
will be at progressively lower prices. It will tehn take 2 weeks
before the market returns to normal (without further sales)
There is no benefit to selling 1000mu x 2 or selling 2000mus
in the same week - both will net the same price.
There are three market categories, Life, Trade Goods and Drugs
All items in the category count to the same market.
So if a starbase sells 30,000mu's of food to the local population and the planet only has a weekly intake of 500mu, then ALL sales of Trade Goods irrespective of whether it is the same item or not will be vastly reduced for a number of weeks, e.g. selling furs will net virtually no money if sold immediately after the above sale!
Some trade items are specific to one race. The value on the planet is modified by the percentage of population present. If there are 70% DEN and the trade item is DEN specific then the price is 170% of normal.
If there are no DEN present then it will sell for 100% of its listed value.
The race element of the trade goods is shown on 'Sell to Local Population' if the race of the trade item is relevent.
The Situation
The current system is based on rigid modifiers dependent upon crossing Periphery
boundaries. The value of origin-specific luxuries is modified as follows (as mentioned above):
x1 for sale on the origin planet
x3 for sale on a different planet in the same system
x8 for sale in a different system in the same Periphery
x12 for sale in an adjacent Periphery
x14 for sale in a non-adjacent Periphery
(there was mention of a potential x16 modifier, but I haven't seen any evidence of
this; shipping from the Inner Capellan to Dewiek Home Peripheries, crossing the
Outer Capellan and Cluster on the way, only received a x14 modifier, the same as
for goods from the Outer Capellan)
The Problems
As I see it, there are two problems with this system. First, it's too rigid, in
that the location of Periphery boundaries has a big effect, which can have very
little relation to how far you actually have to ship the goods. Second, the curve
tails off too quickly, in that the margin between selling goods in the same
Periphery and in an adjacent Periphery is too small. This means that to offer a
good price to buy items in their origin Periphery, the price I sell at in a
different Periphery is too high for people to feel that the profit is worthwhile.
In both cases, I feel that the current arrangement has a negative influence on
inter-affiliation trade, and that a change would vastly improve this. I would like
to see a more detailed system of value modifiers, based largely upon the travel
time between different systems, with Periphery boundaries providing an extra jump,
but not the only increase. I would also like to see the value modifier not tail
off so quickly, so that there are greater rewards for shipping goods long
distances.
Boundaries
Let me start with the issue of the rigid boundaries. The example I used in
Blackpool was goods from London, in that transporting them to Solo or to Crossley
gets the same price. Mica argued that the travel time was the same, hence this was
right. The argument that I should have put forward at the time is that travel from
London to Crossley is _not_ as easy as travel from London to Solo. When travelling
from London to Solo, any player can do so, and the jump can be undertaken in any
one of 24 orbital quadrants (alpha to delta, ring 10 to ring 15). London to
Crossley requires travel through the wormhole. This means that you can only travel
through ONE orbital quandrant (gamma-7), and that you have to know about the
wormhole (not to mention the wormhole having to be open to London...). Thus there
is a difference. This translates to travel time; the fact that you have to travel
via one specific orbital quandrant can often increase transit time.
A better example is to take goods from Solo. Venice or Kastor are only 2 systems
(so 1 jump) away, and in different Peripheries, so that transport would gain you a
x12 modifier. Inferno is 10 systems, so 3 jumps away, yet is in the same Periphery
(Outer Capellan), thus only gets a x8 modifier. Yet it takes almost three times as
long to get there (the "almost" allows for the in-system movement at either end)!
This rewards people who happen to be situated at Periphery boundaries, or who are
in small Peripheries (e.g. the DTR), rather than those who actually take the time
and effort to ship goods over significant distances.
Surely the value of goods should depend upon the distance from their origin, not
on artifical Periphery boundaries? Surely buyers in Crossley should feel closer to
Teller and London than buyers in Avalon do to Darkfold and Solo?
Values
This links in to my second point, about the value modifier tailing off too
quickly. Every affiliation has access to more than one system in the same
Periphery. This means that any affiliation can, by shipping goods itself, achieve
a x8 modifier quite easily. As it is likely to be necessary to ship things within
the same periphery to sell them to another affiliation, this means that anybody
(e.g. the AFT :-) ) looking to buy trade goods has to offer at least 8 times their
base value.
I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who wants to encourage
inter-affiliation trade. I want to buy items in their origin periphery, do the
shipping myself, and then sell them on in a different periphery. As established
above, I have to offer at least 8 times base value in the origin periphery. Let's
say I buy them at x9, for example. Wherever I sell them on, I can only get x12 or
x14. This leaves only three, or possibly five, times base value for two sets of
people (me, plus whoever I sell the goods on to) to make some money. End users are
not happy with only making two or three times base value, but the economics of the
situation means that that is all that's viable at the moment.
That's a best case scenario. Most (in fact, all, as far as I am aware)
affiliations have access to more than one Periphery. The distance they can travel
might not be that great, but it crosses a Periphery border, hence they can ship
goods within their own affiliation and get a x12 modifier. No affiliation can get
to every Periphery, but what's the point in selling the goods outside your
affiliation if that will only get you a fraction of the base value (and less than
two times the base value to whoever you sell it to)?
The end result is that for any inter-affiliation trade to take place, a player or
affiliation has to make a conscious decision (such as the CNF have obviously done)
to sell trade goods to others, rather than shipping the goods themselves. The
economics do not encourage inter-affiliation trade.
My Proposals
In my opinion, there are three things that should be done to change things to
encourage inter-affiliation trade. First is to reform the distance modifiers for
trade values. The modifier should be determined on a system-by-system basis,
depending on:
- the number of system jumps needed to travel between the systems
- changes in Periphery (but transit over 1 jump that crosses a Periphery boundary
should probably get slightly less of a modifier than a transit of 2 jumps with no
Periphery boundary)
- wormholes and stargates (travel through these should give a greater modifier
than ordinary system jumps, especially for stargates)
- transit to, from or through restricted systems
Obviously, these should be determined by the shortest/lowest modifier route (not
necessarily the same when you take stargates into account), not by the route
actually taken :-).
Secondly, these revised distance modifiers should have a greater difference
between the modifiers for short and long distance transit. I'm not sure that there
is anything wrong with x16 (or x14) as the top modifier, it's just how quickly
that level of modifier is reached that is currently a problem.
Thirdly, planetary economies should themselves restrict having the same product
constantly shipped to them (to encourage people to seek out new markets). This was
mentioned at the pubmeet, so it's hopefully already on David's list of things to
do, but I'll repeat it here for completeness. To discourage people from always
shipping the same goods to the same place within their own affiliation, the values
achieved should drop if you're selling the same thing to the local populace all
the time, even if you are selling within the planet's demand. One suggestion that
was made to me for numbers for this, is that each sale should consider the
quantity of that item that has been sold to the local population over the previous
four weeks. For each percentage point in excess of 20% of the total demand for
those four weeks, the price received should drop by 1%, down to receiving only 50%
value if you are selling more than 70% of the world's demand as a single item.
This is only an example, but I think that having prices bottom out at 50% of
normal value is about right.
Conclusion
I think that the current system of distance modifiers doesn't encourage inter-affiliation trade in the way that it should. I would like to see the current arrangement changed to a more complex, but more sophisticated, system that will offer greater rewards for traders.
I will freely admit that the argument arises because of where I think the AFT should be making money, but I really do think that encouraging inter-affiliation trade of luxuries will be beneficial to the economy of the whole game, not just to the AFT.
I hope that this has argued my case better than when I talked to Mica at the pubmeet in March, but I will be happy to try to clarify my reasoning if necessary. Apologies for the length of the post :-).
Richard
AFT
They would seem to solve these problems on their own....
If any planet is sold any good, the price would decrease, and if the planet has been sold none of the good the price keeps increasing at some regular time interval until someone sells there.
Not only is this a relatively realistic but simple aswell!
| QUOTE (Lirril @ Jun 17 2003, 02:14 PM) |
| Not only is this a relatively realistic but simple aswell! |
I love it when people say things are simple - I can see the look on Davids face when he reads such messages - it's a picture! | QUOTE (Lirril @ Jun 17 2003, 01:14 PM) |
| Maybe I'm being foolish here, but what ever happened to the laws of supply and demand? They would seem to solve these problems on their own.... If any planet is sold any good, the price would decrease, and if the planet has been sold none of the good the price keeps increasing at some regular time interval until someone sells there. Not only is this a relatively realistic but simple aswell! |
This is already true. In fact the above multipliers presumes that the prices are the maximum that will ever be paid (avoiding the ability to sell a jellybean for a zillion stellars simply because nobody has sold them any since the start of time). The multipliers are (will be) affected by the amount of the same item sold on regular basis.
What Richard is interested in is a more detailed database of distances. Basically a database of every system in the game with a index to every other system with some extra points for distance to the jump ring, use of stargates and the likes thrown in for good measure.
This database is then used along with supply and demand in order to calculate the the price of the item.
Hell, why not even go for friendly/neutral/enemy territory modifiers with some values that can be edited to accomodate people with starbases on the the origins. This could then account for getting stuff from a confederate controlled planet to eager imperial populations.
I'm sure that we (read David
)could implement this should anyone actually want to create a database/spreadsheet of all the values, taking into account all the above.Cheers
Mica
| QUOTE (Mica Goldstone @ Jun 17 2003, 03:41 PM) |
| I'm sure that we (read David ;) )could implement this should anyone actually want to create a database/spreadsheet of all the values, taking into account all the above. |
If all it takes is for someone else (i.e. someone with more time available :-) ) to create a spreadsheet of values, I will be happy to do so! I will have a go at it shortly, and probably post some ideas here for discussion later...
Richard
| QUOTE |
| If all it takes is for someone else (i.e. someone with more time available :-) ) to create a spreadsheet of values, |
if only it were that easy
at the moment we've not really got our heads around what to do with the trade to make it better. I've been running a ship around specifically doing trade from a new player point of view and its not that rewarding at all, in fact i can't see why anyone would ever do any, so it must need something changing. Theres not the markets out there at the moment, people want to buy lots but the're not selling. Changing the distance modifiers is a start but we need some more discussion to get some ideas where we can go with this.
Unique Items should be taken a step further, and though the game has moved away from affiliation specials with regards to abilities I think it should be altered with regards to affiliation special items.
Example. IMP and GTT sell a photon gun. IMP should be able to produce a more efficient photon gun, taking into consideration their combat nature. GTT should be able to produce a cheaper, mass produced photon gun, maybe less efficient.
There is wide spectrum of items which can be created as affiliation uniques. Unique weapons, armours, vehicles which can only be produced by that affiliation which takes into account the tech the affiliation has! Also it automatically creates goods that can be sold as they have rarity and collectability. Best of all the prices can be set by the affs and not require any modifiers for periphery.
Doc
RIP
| QUOTE (Doc_mark @ Jun 18 2003, 12:16 AM) |
| There is wide spectrum of items which can be created as affiliation uniques. Unique weapons, armours, vehicles which can only be produced by that affiliation which takes into account the tech the affiliation has! Also it automatically creates goods that can be sold as they have rarity and collectability. Best of all the prices can be set by the affs and not require any modifiers for periphery. |
I like this idea in principle but I think it will result in way to many different items, but maybe that's not a problem.
| QUOTE |
| Theres not the markets out there at the moment, people want to buy lots but the're not selling. |
I know affiliations already have stockpiles of trade goods.
I am therefore under the impression that affiliations actually want to do all their own shipping rather than use middle men such as the AFT. The free ships aspect of the game may be an inducement to simply store items until such times as the affiliation has the ships to move the stockpiles.
If this is the case then improving distance multipliers will go even further towards lack of sales at starbases.
There is also the indication that affiliations are looking to build starbases at different ends of the peripheries in order to simply ship items between the two locations ensuring that all stellar profits remain firmly within their own affiliations - no middle men for us thanks, nosireebob.
I therefore think that the quicker we include the modifier for repeated selling of the same item to worlds, the quicker affiliations have to increase the range of markets they sell to.
By making even planets with huge trade demands quickly getting tired of constant shipments of slugworm steaks, despite being from the far end of the galaxy, the better.
How would it work roughly? Would the price for a specific item drop immediately for each successive sale? Would different goods have different demand rates?
I also hope there would be some kind of extended market report for starbases to show the different goods and their relative values (only those that are different need be listed of course):
TRADE DEMAND (mus) VALUE (Stellars) CURRENT
Trade Goods 13577 1.04 1.04
- Imperial Red Tape 10459 1.04 1.02
- RIP Parrot Guard 9564 1.04 0.56
Drugs Demand 0 0 0
Lifeform Demand 1611 0.64 0.64
(sorry forgive the format problem not sure how to do a <pre> in these boards)
Or whatever :)
Race specific products. Would a race lower the price for foodstuff delicassie (in their eyes and taste only), just because a steady supply comes in? That's what they want, more of the stuff.
And what about drugs? The more one sells the more the demand. As more sentients get addicted the more they'll pay, not less!!! Just an example:)
I think someone else already pointed out that an aff can have two starbases just a single jump away across a periphery border and cash in on the x12 modified for no great inconvenience.
| QUOTE |
| How would it work roughly? Would the price for a specific item drop immediately for each successive sale? Would different goods have different demand rates? |
I sort of see it as happening in two different ways, if you do a one off large sell then the bottom falls out of the market over night but will recover quite quickly, however if you continually do a trade run to glut the market then over several months the population get to hate the item and will never buy it again ever.
| QUOTE |
| I also hope there would be some kind of extended market report for starbases to show the different goods and their relative values (only those that are different need be listed of course): |
i'm sure that whatever changes are made David will make the appropriate adjustments to relect them within the reports and the web site
)...When I was describing the supply and demand idea as simple, I meant simple to understand and conceptualise (as in you can explain it to people in a couple of sentences), rather than suggesting it was simple to implement.
What I was suggesting is to dispose with these artificial modifiers entirely. Why should a 16 times modifier apply in any particular place? If you think about it, if a population has a weekly demand for say 100 units of a particular unique item, how far away this unique item is located is completely irrelevant. What matters is how many units people have delivered over time, if no one is delivering any of it, then the price goes up, if people are rolling around super carriers every day the price bottoms out.
Obviously some of this is already implemented in some form, planetary markets do have limits and can become severely depressed if they are oversold to. What I'm saying is that bringing goods from Darkfold to Capella should pay more than trade runs of a similar distance not because it's X peripheries away, but because no one is doing it, it's that simple.
- Lirril
What happens when the wormhole moves?
I have recently discovered a unique item shipping from Twilight to one of my Cluster starbases, that picks up a rather tasty 14x modifier.
Unless I'm very mistaken, Twilight is considered Outer Capellan in terms of trade modifiers (despite having to use a startgate to actually enter Inferno) - so currently, I am crossing 2 peripheries to get the trade goods to the Cluster. When the wormhole threshold moves to Teller, I will only effectively be crossing one periphery boundry - so my multiplier drops to 8x? 12x?
To get maximum usage of ship space, this means a captain could well be forced to stock-up with a variety of different goods as opposed to 1 or 2. At 10 TU's for each buy/sell/delivery/pickup it could be very expensive TU wise even for a more moderately sized freighter.
(Perhaps one solution would be to have the TU cost for these transactions to be based on the total MU's being picked up - with perhaps an extra couple of TU's for each change of item? because it seems more logical to me that a ship would take less time picking up 500 MU's of food and 500 MU's of goods than a ship picking up 2000 MU's of a single item)
Furthermore, there should be certain trade goods (food, medical supplies, or perhaps things like colonist supplies) that would be regarded as neccessities - ie; there will always be demand for them, because for the colonists making there new lives on planet x they are the things they need to survive. Indeed there would need to be a scale of neccessity of some kind - ie; low value perishables would be less prone to fluctuations in the market because they would be seen as a more affordable -and practical - luxury to the average colonist than the high end crocodile skin boots.
Obviously this opens up the possibility for a lot of whinging about what would be more less prone to market forces than what but there you go.
| QUOTE (Doc_mark @ Jun 17 2003, 04:16 PM) |
| Unique Items should be taken a step further, and though the game has moved away from affiliation specials with regards to abilities I think it should be altered with regards to affiliation special items. Example. IMP and GTT sell a photon gun. IMP should be able to produce a more efficient photon gun, taking into consideration their combat nature. GTT should be able to produce a cheaper, mass produced photon gun, maybe less efficient. There is wide spectrum of items which can be created as affiliation uniques. Unique weapons, armours, vehicles which can only be produced by that affiliation which takes into account the tech the affiliation has! Also it automatically creates goods that can be sold as they have rarity and collectability. Best of all the prices can be set by the affs and not require any modifiers for periphery. |
I'm sorry to say, but I am very much against this proposal. With the expanded list of new kit available in Phoenix, information gathering at starbases has been dramatically increased in the amount of time and effort required to gain significant information. The addition of 12 different flavours of Photon Gun adds even more complexity and requires the added expenditure of even more TU's for my Agents and Operatives - extra TU's that must be spent avoiding security just to see which flavour of Photon Gun is really there
As it stands, it's already bad enough that Agents have to sort through 5 types of Photon Guns in each of 5 different tech's... It gets worse with ground kit 
Although I like the idea for RP reasons, practical concerns force me to consider it inappropriate.
Rich Fanning
aka
Lord Lawrence Scrimm
CIA Director of Regional Operations
| QUOTE (Lord Scrimm @ Jun 18 2003, 07:12 PM) |
| Although I like the idea for RP reasons, practical concerns force me to consider it inappropriate. |
I feel the same about the thousands of unique trade goods. But people do like them, and people keep looking for more and more.
Doc
| QUOTE |
| And what about drugs? The more one sells the more the demand. As more sentients get addicted the more they'll pay, not less!!! Just an example:) |
That makes sense and drugs could have other effects such as depreciating the need for any other trade goods. black markets being the ideal place to sell them
Profit for distance would go some way towards helping this but not the current system, which makes absolutly no sense at all, the per jump concept would be easy enough to implement and make a huge improvement to the game. However as i said early supply and demand would be the best bet, although a fair amount of work on behalf of the coders it's not impossibly to do and not even that hard (although your database will have to handle a million or so extra entries) and will allow the distance issue to be completly ignored (as less long distance goods will get shipped because it costs more, so the price goes up).
Of course you have the issue of "starving" a population of a certain tpye of good to get artifically high price but this is an easy enough issue to solve (caps based on distance)
Either go for a price range demand or a goods demand, with this i mean, the following.
Low price demand (items worth 0.1 to 1 at your location)
Medium price demand (items worth 1.1 to 5 at your location)
etc
So if someone sold you an unique which is worth 0.2 like a food, but due to modifier would give you 2.4 then would that fall on the medium price demand, as colonists would only be able to afford so many of them.
Or the goods demand.
Food Demand
Clothing Demand
Medical Demand
etc
This would need to class all unique items as those kinds.
Or possible a combination of both, nomatter how you do this, then will it mean
a more hard system to run with, but could also be way more interesting